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Reasons why despite having excellent products Nikon is losing market share


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#1 toni-a

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 04:14 PM

https://www.slrloung...heir-customers/
Arrogance, ignoring competition, leading to marketing strategic errors...

#2 JoJu

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 05:54 PM

Oh my, toni-A, is Armageddon close again?  :o

 

I wonder why usually nobody is asking for hard numbers. In some dude's opinion Nikon is loosing market shares. So what? All reasons for that do apply to the majority of big companies, Apple, Ford, Volkswagen, IBM, you name it. When was the last, or even the first time a big company listened to you?

 

loosing market share and at the same time their production can't deliver all ordered bodies of a new and expensive camera. Sounds very logical... :rolleyes:



#3 Studor13

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 07:36 PM

"Sure the D850 may be, and probably is, the best DSLR on the market, but it’s like being the best combustion engined car in the age of the Tesla."

Apparently, Nissan is about to introduce a new petrol engine that is going to be more efficient than diesel. So, no matter how good electric cars become petrol engines are here to stay (for quite some time yet).

Look, it's not like Nikon has done nothing with mirrorless. They've tried with J1, J2, J3, J4, J5, V1, V2, V3, AW1, S1, S2 and an APS-C sized sensor camera with fixed lens.

Remember how long after Canon's FF did Nikon come out with the D3? Well, who's leading who now? They are basically on par.

So, don't worry. NIkon will come out with a great mirrorless FF.
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From the sunny side of the Alps.

#4 obican

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 12:47 AM

I hope it ends up being a better effort than the half assed Df. Everyone who was involved in the development of that camera's interface should be fired.

 

Specs were amazing on paper. 

 

  1. Build a retro looking body. People like retro.
  2. Use the excellent 16MP sensor, low light is amazing and old AI-S lenses people want can only match that resolution anyway.
  3. Take the AF module from D610. Yes it's a rather limiting one but people will go for center point AF anyway.
  4. Make it very lightweight, people like lightweight.
  5. Make it compatible with  ancient Nikon lenses by adding that long forgotten meter coupling tab. More of a talking point than being of actual use but do it.

 

Then it all went downhill.

 

  • Body is extremely ugly and fat, unlike any of their old film cameras this one wants to associate itself with.
  • Surely you can make the camera all stills oriented but why omit video at all? That's bullshit. 
  • Focus screen is fixed so you can't use split prism finders for actual manual focusing experience.
  • Design team never used an old film camera in their lives. Ever. 
  • Seriously, who puts a lock on every single dial you need regularly?
  • Yaaay look, all external dials for everything. You can use them without looking at them.
  • You still need two eyes though. You also need to take the camera off of your eye. 
  • For real, interface is really really fucked up.
  • Oh and that flashy shutter speed dial is completely optional. 
  • Actually use AutoISO and pretty much all the dials become useless. They are essentially for looks only.
  • We know you want to use the aperture dials on the lenses to feel like a real photographer. Shame that none of the modern lenses have those dials. 
  • So the interface will end up being worse than any Nikon DSLR ever and that's quite an achievment in itself.

 

If their mirrorless design team is the same people who came up with Df, it's going to be absolutely awful. If they put the guys who came up with D5, D500, D810 or D750 or D7000 which provided the excellent egronomics for D600/D610 for it, it's going to be great.

 

You need two hands to change between PASM, really. That while a OMG SO RETRO Fuji user can do it with two flicks, without ever taking the camera off of their eye. Both cameras have physical shutter speed and aperture dials. One can actually use them well.

 

I wouldn't put too much trust in anything Nikon or Canon does. I can do this same rant about Canon, concerning how they came up with a very decent competitor to Sony's RX100. Only problem was that Sony was actually at RX100 III at that time, almost ready to release RX100 IV.



#5 dave's clichés

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 09:31 AM

This is ML vs DSLRs again....so we are yawning already...(we need a yawnicon ;) )

 

  Nikon has set out to actually produce DSLRs that many pros and amateurs have been aspiring to, since forever...

 

   ...and have been completely successful in doing that........plus they have removed the "Chasse Gardée" of the exclusive pro body that could often be out IQ'd by lower end models.....amateurs can actually get an IQ conscious pro quality body for a non pro price .....

 

  .For me that's a huge BRAVO!  They have completed the work in hand and we are now there.....in the DSLR world that is!

 

 How long will we have to wait to see the same from Canon....or will ML get there first?

 

    ML shooters are distracted elsewhere for their own valid reasons no doubt, but lets not forget where we have got to, we are now at the point of dotting the i 's and the t's  in the DSLR imaging world, some achievement!

 

  Can we say the same for Canon?....  No!.. the IQ of the 6D MKII is turning out to be slightly worse than it's older sibling, admittedly the 5D MKIV is an upgrade from the MKIII,  but Canon still lags well behind and is effectively again newly trounced by it's competitor the D850,  as the D7200 trounces the 80D! (all except Canon's famous video PDAF)

 

  Nikon have at least thrown in everything into their pro-sumer bodies....Canon for their part have produced a couple of  DSLRs giving by reluctant duty, rather than by voluntary means, some additional yet dated features.

 

     but then we've forgotten where we have got to these days!



#6 JoJu

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:05 AM

Yawnicon is a good idea!

 

How about them: bored20x18.gif  zeitg29x23.gif  sleed45x18.gif

 

Somehow I feel sleepy now... Let's do Canonistas their Canon thing. And let's hope Nikon has not some inbuilt factory recall timer onboard of their new flagship. At the moment I'm thinking of selling the D810 and getting the D500 you're already enjoying. Both cameras are very similar in their button layout.



#7 dave's clichés

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:59 AM

  They look good JoJu!  How is it done?

 

You will like the D500, when I pick up the D750 and go to my four (D500) programmed AF buttons only to find that it doesn't have that feature, it reminds me what a monumental leap the D500 is, otherwise the D750 still beats it for IQ by a margin. 

 

  Are you getting both cameras and am I under the impression that you have become less enamoured by ML cameras by this move JoJu?



#8 JoJu

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 11:27 AM

The icons are from a friendly Mac-user's website (macinacs.de)

 

Yesterday I passed by at a motocross race. I stopped, put the 100-400 in front of the X-T2 and tried to get some shots in a (to me) totally new subject.

 

Now I punished myself with selecting out of 1700 pictures, 95% absolutely crap, but taken at 11fps. I don't know the number of misfocused shots (although the AF-C in this situation did alright an dmost of the time tracked surprisingly well). But when the first picture was not in focus, the whole burst stayed out of focus. Also, few times the camera didn't react - I pushed the shutter release but nothing happened. Maybe I have to check some menu parameters, but under stress I miss some kind of a logical arrangement of the menu. I thought, lucky me there's no assignment on my neck, it doesn't matter if all pictures are not working - I'dbe upset, but nobody else looses anything.

 

_DSF2300-XL.jpg

 

_DSF2843-XL.jpg

 

That was not the worst: Just before passing the motocross I did some comparisons for Bokeh and had 3 50ish lenses with me (you know, Marcus already was enthusiastic about the 50/2 WR). All of a sudden, the camera didn't switch on. I had to pull the batteries out of the grip and wait a bit to kick it back to life. I don't know and didn't scroll through all menus, but after this kind of reset some parameters were altered.

 

It's not that Nikon never shows any strange things going on - like not displaying a picture when I push the play button maybe too early (that bit was new with the last firmware update). But compare to any Nikon, to me the X-T2 still feels more like a toy pretending to be a serious tool. There are too much things which Fuji designers have other ideas than I. Which is fine, loads of people are happy Fuji fanboys.

 

Also, I want to use a camera able to deal with dark low light. The X-T2 clearly is not, AF-C hunts too much in comparatively quiet situations. Pointing the Nikon with AF-C and on a stable tripod towards a stable focus target: No AF hunting. Doing the same with X-T2: My impression is, the cmaer thinks "oh, that fella switched on AF-C, there must be some action, let me find out where, yippiee".

 

Maybe the Sony RX10 IV would be the better choice to catch motocrosses.

 

No, I'm getting the D850 first but I'm tempted to get a second DX body preferrably with the same interface as the D850 - which automatically leads to D500 drinb27x24.gif And since both fetaure in-body AFMA, the biggest problem I had with DSLR (focus inaccuracy due to indirect "measuring") got better than the biggest problem I have with mirrorless Fuji. Lousy lowlight-capabilities.

 

I can't don't want to afford two FX bodies.


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#9 Ayoh

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 06:37 AM

Only a matter of time before mirrorless dominates performance across all categories. In terms of shooting performance the A9 already outclasses high end DSLRs in a lot of areas. It just needs some refinements in AF algorithms for certain cases, more lenses and better build quality and there will be no reason to buy a DSLR. 



#10 toni-a

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:00 AM

Back to the main topic, check the errors Nikon marketing is making.

What were they thinking? for a global company,  not including a woman or a black man in the marketing campaign of their flagship product !!! who would commit such an error ??

I am not saying they are racist or anything but a marketing department for such a company shouldn't commit such gross errors. 



#11 JoJu

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 09:25 AM

Only a matter of time before mirrorless dominates performance across all categories. In terms of shooting performance the A9 already outclasses high end DSLRs in a lot of areas. It just needs some refinements in AF algorithms for certain cases, more lenses and better build quality and there will be no reason to buy a DSLR. 

 

I'm on your page, Ayoh, who needs a mirror to make good pictures? As soon as one mirrorless company comes out with something made as tool instead as toy, I will become interested. Some features of the new D850 I just don't see at mirrorless - or if they are available, then buried in a ton of menus. A good tool newver is a complicated one, never distracts the user.

 

Last Sunday I had not only one experience but a couple with a "professional" X-T2 which not must happen. It has a reason Nikon and Camon became big companies, no matter what bullshit their marketing lets out. So just shut up, toni-a, this thing with the 32 male photogs is just speaking for itself. A company would need balls of steel to come through with this - and that's something I don't see in general at Nikon. Luckily, the cameras are not designed by these stupid pricks from their marketing.



#12 Ayoh

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 12:48 PM

I'm on your page, Ayoh, who needs a mirror to make good pictures? As soon as one mirrorless company comes out with something made as tool instead as toy, I will become interested. Some features of the new D850 I just don't see at mirrorless - or if they are available, then buried in a ton of menus. A good tool newver is a complicated one, never distracts the user.
 
Last Sunday I had not only one experience but a couple with a "professional" X-T2 which not must happen. It has a reason Nikon and Camon became big companies, no matter what bullshit their marketing lets out. So just shut up, toni-a, this thing with the 32 male photogs is just speaking for itself. A company would need balls of steel to come through with this - and that's something I don't see in general at Nikon. Luckily, the cameras are not designed by these stupid pricks from their marketing.


JoJu if you are into action photography and frustrated by a the Fuji you should try the A9. From my experience it has been very reliable and AF is exceptional. I can get a 90% in focus rate photographing cyclist coming towards me on a nighttime city street at 10fps, 200mm f2.8 ,ISO 25600, 1/320. This is with the Sony 70-200mm GM

#13 JoJu

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 12:53 PM

I'll keep that in mind, but currently I have too much Nikon/Sigma glass to sell. I haven't look into it, but not all Art lenses are convertible to Sony E-mount. Also, I'm not exactly fan of Sony's menus.



#14 Ayoh

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:06 PM

I'll keep that in mind, but currently I have too much Nikon/Sigma glass to sell. I haven't look into it, but not all Art lenses are convertible to Sony E-mount. Also, I'm not exactly fan of Sony's menus.

Oh i meant borrow one to play around if you can. The menus are also improved as they are categorised a bit more directly and more importantly they have a "my menu" option now where you can add your own shortcut items. Overall its an improvement.

 

The camera performance is very impressive though. Some items they could still improve are: make the body more rugged, provide a 14bit electronic shutter option (14 bit only available with mechanical shutter) although this only makes a difference for ISO below about 100-200, improve the 4k rolling shutter, add USB 3. Thats about all i can think of. I think the next generation will be seriously difficult for canon or nikon to rival. I hope they will finally enter the high-end mirrorless market though as it would be good to have some more competition.

 

By the way I expect the upcoming A7r iii / A9r model to be essentially a A99ii in emount form - 42MP, 12FPS etc, reduced lag EVF. It will be a serious alternative to the d850. Alternatively if they go for a high resolution stacked sensor, then using simple scaling of the A9 processor they could do 48MP at 10FPS with black-out free shutter and close to A9 level AF.



#15 JoJu

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:16 PM

Just checked, the daily rental basis would be 180.- for A9 and lens  :o

 

Bit steep at the moment.



#16 Ayoh

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:32 AM

Just checked, the daily rental basis would be 180.- for A9 and lens  :o

 

Bit steep at the moment.

 

The A9 is definitely overpriced at the moment. It can't cost much more to make than the A7rii. I guess they are charging what they feel they can get away with. "Bargains" can be had though, I got mine for about $4300USD equivalent in australia which I could stomach considering the normal price in australia equates to about $5400USD with taxes. 



#17 JoJu

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:45 AM

Here it's about 5700.-

 

800 more and I get a Fuji GFX 50S - action photos are rare for me.



#18 Brightcolours

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:12 AM

Here it's about 5700.-
 
800 more and I get a Fuji GFX 50S - action photos are rare for me.

And the lenses, how are they priced?

#19 Brightcolours

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 11:57 AM

http://www.dslrbodie...-mirrorles.html


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#20 mst

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 12:49 PM

Interesting find, thanks for sharing
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