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The best sensor doesn't belong to Sony anymore


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#1 toni-a

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:43 PM

on DXO mark, the best sensor is Nikon D850 and it isn't sony...

 

https://www.dpreview...it-score-of-100

 

and the king of dynamic range with whopping 17+ f stops belongs to RED

 

https://www.dpreview...-weapon-cameras

 

good to see some serious competition  



#2 chrismiller

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:05 AM

doesn't Sony make the sensor in the D850?



#3 JoJu

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:13 AM

Of course it is, it's just toni who brings up fake news DPreview or DxO never said. I think, he confused Sony A7 R II which is no longer DxO's best FF sensor.



#4 Brightcolours

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:48 AM

As far as I know, NO, Sony does not make the D850 sensor. Do you know any Sony camera with a 45.7mp sensor? I don't. And do you know any Nikon camera with a 42mp sensor? I don't. Sony did not sell the 42mp sensor to Nikon, so Nikon had to go elsewhere and take its time to replace the D800/810.

 

From what I have read, Nikon partly designed the D850 sensor themselves  (just like they did with the D3/4/5 sensors) and partly by FORZA Silicon Corporation, and it is manufactured by TowerJazz.



#5 chrismiller

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:55 AM

I stand corrected. Some shots of it here: https://nikonrumors....i-sensor.aspx/ 

 

Well done Nikon, I suspect a good choice to break from Sony.



#6 dave's clichés

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:14 AM

    I heard their sensor is designed by Nikon and produced by an Israeli company based called Tower Jazz, who manufacture the sensor in Israel.

  

 Link here:

                 https://en.wikipedia...r_Semiconductor



#7 JoJu

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:00 AM

And I read somewhere, it's a Nikon design but made by Sony - but since I don't know anymore where I read it (and how reliable that source is) I just stand corrected as well.

However, I checked before I posted DPreview's article and DxO's and could not see any note like "the sensor is not made by Sony". Also there was no hint "the sensor IS made by Sony" as well.



#8 thxbb12

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 01:26 PM

on DXO mark, the best sensor is Nikon D850 and it isn't sony...

 

https://www.dpreview...it-score-of-100

 

and the king of dynamic range with whopping 17+ f stops belongs to RED

 

https://www.dpreview...-weapon-cameras

 

good to see some serious competition  

 

I find the DXO overall score a bit misleading as it's highly biased towards base ISO.

This is what saves the D850 against the A7II.

A more interesting and arguably more accurate way of gauging sensor overall performance is to look at the various graphs (SNR, dynamic range, colors).

When looking at the graphs from the D850 and A7II, it appears the A7II is overall a superior sensor despite being 2 years older.

Besides base ISO, the A7II sensors offers superior performances in all categories.


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#9 toni-a

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 01:32 PM

I find the DXO overall score a bit misleading as it's highly biased towards base ISO.

This is what saves the D850 against the A7II.

A more interesting and arguably more accurate way of gauging sensor overall performance is to look at the various graphs (SNR, dynamic range, colors).

When looking at the graphs from the D850 and A7II, it appears the A7II is overall a superior sensor despite being 2 years older.

Besides base ISO, the A7II sensors offers superior performances in all categories.

 

Well there's no ideal rating system, maybe  it's not the best sensor but it surely is a decent competitor that should heat things up for Sony

 

Are there any links between towerjazz and MFT ? I read it's related to panasonic, would we see this new sensor  technology in upcoming MFT cameras ?



#10 JoJu

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 02:16 PM

First, it's only two points difference.

Second, various real MF backs score lower - but I don't think their pictiures are worse. They just get killed by bad performance for Sports, put that away and soon things are different.

Third, it's only DxO



#11 JoJu

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 03:02 PM

I find the DXO overall score a bit misleading as it's highly biased towards base ISO.

This is what saves the D850 against the A7II.

A more interesting and arguably more accurate way of gauging sensor overall performance is to look at the various graphs (SNR, dynamic range, colors).

 

Talking about Dynamic range:

 

comp2_dr_print.jpg

 

It's after ISO 1000 when the Sony A7RII gets slightly better. And I doubt if the "advantage" of the D850 or A7RII is visible - but the D850 still has a lot features not available for Sony users, so I think it's bold to say Sony or Sony's sensor is better.

 

I expect Sony to come up with an A9RII at some time which leaves the D850 in the dust of only 100 points, but so far and at given prices, the D850 remains affordable and the current "only 24MP" A9 already is 1000.- more expensive

 

DxO claims "sports"  ratings in hand of Sony. Rank 1-3 is Sony, 4 is Pentax, 5 and 6 Nikon and the first Canon appears on 7 - I don't know if that's showing reality?



#12 Brightcolours

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:55 PM

From a different source:
http://www.photonsto...,Sony ILCE-7RM2
DXO's "sports" and so on scores are nonsensical.

#13 obican

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 07:14 PM

Anything and everything dxo does are nonsensical. I don't care how and what exactly they measure but having used some of the cameras they've tested, I wouldn't believe anything they publish.

 

If you trust them, Canon 5D Classic is better in low light than some rather modern cameras like Sony A6000, Nikon D500, D7200 and so on. 



#14 dave's clichés

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:44 PM

   The fact that DXO doesn't take into account resolution into their scores makes their interpretation of the final image "blurred"......

 

     ........however, as for the rest I haven't seen much that hasn't been collaborated elsewhere......

 

     ........so nonsensical?   

    

    I don't see it that way!

 

 

 

Edit...........apart from their scores of their own nonsensical telephone bolt on thingy!



#15 mike

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:15 PM

As far as I know, NO, Sony does not make the D850 sensor. Do you know any Sony camera with a 45.7mp sensor? I don't. And do you know any Nikon camera with a 42mp sensor? I don't. Sony did not sell the 42mp sensor to Nikon, so Nikon had to go elsewhere and take its time to replace the D800/810.

 

From what I have read, Nikon partly designed the D850 sensor themselves  (just like they did with the D3/4/5 sensors) and partly by FORZA Silicon Corporation, and it is manufactured by TowerJazz.

 

 

What does sensor MP's have to do with anything? It could use whatever Sony's latest technology mode is. Which doesn't preclude Nikon, or anyone, coming in with different circuitry and some tweaking of standard cells to produce a different result.

 

That said, I have no idea where this sensor is made. Honestly, it's pretty irrelevant to me. It's not a game changer for me to switch to Nikon. The most interesting part is seeing the technology being pushed and competitions.



#16 JoJu

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:12 PM

Actually I don't think it's possible or sensible to tinker around with MP on a given sensor. BC's comment, as far as I understood, was about various MP numbers from Sony cameras and a different number in Nikon which indeed means both sensors are different. The one from Nikon to the point that they have differnet lanes from 64 to 400 ISO and above it's another circuit. Meanwhile I think, Nikon had to find another supplier because Sony is a direct competitor on FF mirrorless.

 

Now, there was Fukushima influencing a couple of suppliers, the earthquake around the Thailand (?) chip factory of Sony and this sensor is coming from Israel, not exactly the safest region in this world. Somehow that's interesting.



#17 toni-a

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:04 PM

Sony themselves said said they wete not giving their best sensors to competitors leaving Nikon no chance but looking elsewhere.
The problem here (Lebanon) the law forbids importing goods manufactured in Israel, so we might see a ban on Nikon cameras

#18 mike

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:11 PM

Well, I've worked in Sony fabs, they've made plenty of chips for plenty of people which were not their designs. Some customers actually better utilize the process node than others, including internal customers. It doesn't work quite how your thinking. Technology nodes are built, design rules are given to perspective customers, which includes the people who design the electronics of the chips within Sony.

 

There's no reason why someone couldn't build a better chip at their fab than they are. I've seen it first hand. Consider as an example, Sony is on a design cycle. It's not good business to supersede themselves before they make any money. On top of that, an external vendor comes in to build a chip and not only is the process more mature and stable, a few new tricks have been incorporated.

 

On top of all that many of these sensors are stacked chips (check out the A9 video). So Sony may only be making the actual sensor, another fab that specializes in advanced CMOS processes with a more advanced technology, like a TSMC, which allows a lot more on-board processing to be done (think Moore's Law) could be doing all the processing of the data coming from the pixels.

 

While this may not be the case with this specific chip, this is how it works.

 

Tony, I wouldn't worry about a Nikon ban. It would only be a piece part in the camera. Intel had fabs in Israel and I doubt Lebanon banned Apple or PCs that has one of these chips in it; or were designed in whole or part there. I'm sure the chips are sent somewhere else to be packaged (usually Korea or the Philippines), then somewhere else for test, then somewhere else to be put on a PCB, the finally somewhere else where it ends up in the final product and says made (or assembled) in China or somewhere else. Otherwise you'd be in deep doo0doo because, even the raw materials come from all over the world.



#19 toni-a

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:58 PM

DXO mark explained

 

https://petapixel.co...camera-ratings/



#20 Brightcolours

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:32 AM

DXO does not explain anything there. Just blurb.




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