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Several ND or variable ND filters


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#1 toni-a

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 09:15 AM

I am getting ND filters for christmas, although I rarely needed them before, since I rarely shoot in plain daylight, but this might change.

There are several god ND filters, however I am wondering would a variable Nd be abetter solution, if yes which one ? otherwise I am getting the classical ND 



#2 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:05 AM

The variable ND filters basically are two polarizers which are crossed in the orientation of their polarization when fully closed. Like you, I also thought "why getting specific ones with several ND steps, but instead one for all occassions?"

 

Maybe the one I chose is of lesser quality (the "big brands" like B&W, Hoya, Cokin, Lee or Format Hitech don't offer them afaik), but there's a big colordrift the more I close it.

 

Color drifts can also be an issue with bigger stoppers. I was not doing more research into it, but I wonder if the big stoppers sometimes just stop the (for humans) visible light but let pass the infrared range. I'm also looking forward to the answers of the other members, as I'd like to biy a good "big stopper" but not spend a lot of money to one with color drift (Formatt hitech in my case, they have 150×150 mm sizes)



#3 obican

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:14 AM

All the big stoppers I've tried had color shifts too. 



#4 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:27 AM

How do you deal with it?

 

The simplest way is going black and white. I tried a color checker, but when the grey was okay, other colors looked plasticky.



#5 obican

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 11:54 AM

I have absolutely no idea :) 



#6 stoppingdown

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 11:58 AM

I confirm, they DO have a strong cast, even the high quality ones. I'm using them too rarely, and this is a fault of mine, but I've used them enough to tell you that they need some work to get a good colour picture (as you said, B&W is easier).

 

First I tried a medium quality stopper, and was appalled at seeing the strong colour cast - so I thought it made sense to spend more money, and bought a Lee Big Stopper (the smaller, for mirrorless, but same glass). It still has a strong cast, as you'll see by the images I'm going to attach (curiously, I did something with the Big Stopper just the past Saturday).

 

With Lightroom, it was a big problem: while most of the cast can be corrected with white balance, it's not enough. Lightroom allows colour channel correction, but it's fixed. With Capture One... it's much easier :) because you can pick the colours that need correction and selectively fix their hue.

 

Another approach would be to shoot a reference with the ColorChecker Passport and create a specific profile for the shot. This works, but it requires more work, the most annoying stuff being that you need a clamp to keep the color target in a fixed position.

 

So, my current approach is: shoot without the filter, to get a visual reference for what the final rendering should be; first apply strong white balance correction to the photo with the filter, and then selectively adjust the remaining colours that aren't good yet. For my limited experience, this is the fastest way.

 

I'm going to attach: a colour reference (not exactly from the same perspective, but it works), the post-processed final photo, and the unprocessed photo straight from the camera.

Attached Files


stoppingdown.net

 

Sony a6300, Sony a6000, Sony NEX-6, Sony E 10-18mm F4 OSS, Sony Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm F4 ZA OSS, Sony FE 70-200mm F4 G OSS, Sigma 150-600mm ƒ/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary, Samyang 12mm ƒ/2, Sigma 30mm F2.8 DN | A, Meyer Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm ƒ/2.8, Samyang 8mm ƒ/3.5 fish-eye II | Zenit Helios 44-2 58mm ƒ/2 
Plus some legacy Nikkor lenses.

#7 Brightcolours

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:10 PM

Stoppingdown, is it not easier just to set the white balance when the filter is mounted?

 

On ND filters, my 9 stop Hoya ND filter (ND400) only has a slight cast compared to most ND filters (slightly more yellow/green, or less magenta?). 



#8 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:18 PM

My Hoya ND 8 behaves also very well. It's the big stoppers, for which I had to set up an own white balance value. Stoppingdown, then hint for Capture One is a good one. Although Aperture also has a color correction for 8 different colors in saturation, hue and brightness (I can colourpick 4 reds an 2 blues, i.e.). I used it on the picture with the big stopper, but having used a colorchecker passport would have made things easier... 



#9 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:29 PM

Funny, someone at my local dealer appear to read this forum:

 

I just got their usual advertisement mail offering 12% rebate for NiSi filters and holders. Like usually when I sniff new gear they dragged my attention.

 

Until I read the prices: holder for 150×150 mm: 170.- francs. ND 1000 filter (10 stops), made of glass, nano coated and with the (usual) statement of "very low color cast": 260.- francs  :wacko:

 

I'll take a dozen. Glass breaks so easily... 



#10 stoppingdown

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:36 PM

My ND64 from Marumi is good as well - it needs only very slight corrections.


stoppingdown.net

 

Sony a6300, Sony a6000, Sony NEX-6, Sony E 10-18mm F4 OSS, Sony Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm F4 ZA OSS, Sony FE 70-200mm F4 G OSS, Sigma 150-600mm ƒ/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary, Samyang 12mm ƒ/2, Sigma 30mm F2.8 DN | A, Meyer Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm ƒ/2.8, Samyang 8mm ƒ/3.5 fish-eye II | Zenit Helios 44-2 58mm ƒ/2 
Plus some legacy Nikkor lenses.

#11 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 01:01 PM

About the variable ND filters (a day full of coincidences): https://www.dpreview...readed-x-effect



#12 dave's clichés

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 01:24 PM

 I use the KOOD  -9 stop ND, it's multi coated which helps cut down on flare, but keeping it clean is not easy, it smears!

 

  Bought in England for £60, it came mounted in a kind of toothed wheel design for a Cokin square filter holder, I didn't like this method and found it mounted nicely in a 67mm filter ring.

 

  Colour bias is there, but seems to be variable depending on the scene.



#13 stoppingdown

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 02:14 PM

Stoppingdown, is it not easier just to set the white balance when the filter is mounted?

 

Can you please clarify?


stoppingdown.net

 

Sony a6300, Sony a6000, Sony NEX-6, Sony E 10-18mm F4 OSS, Sony Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm F4 ZA OSS, Sony FE 70-200mm F4 G OSS, Sigma 150-600mm ƒ/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary, Samyang 12mm ƒ/2, Sigma 30mm F2.8 DN | A, Meyer Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm ƒ/2.8, Samyang 8mm ƒ/3.5 fish-eye II | Zenit Helios 44-2 58mm ƒ/2 
Plus some legacy Nikkor lenses.

#14 toni-a

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 02:58 PM

Can you please clarify?

that would be correct if you will shoot one scene and not set a profile for the filter. you shoot the grey card with the filter mounted set balance then shoot, however you can do better and profile your filter.

in fact every camera needs calibration itself and  if you are a color accuracy fanatic every camera/lens/filter combination needs calibration  , You shoot a color target with the  filter and set the color shifts using software you save the profile , this way when using the filter you set the new camera profile and everything is  automatically corrected

here's the hardware and software to do it, it's not expensive but time consuming  

http://xritephoto.co...ew.aspx?ID=1257



#15 toni-a

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 03:00 PM

About the variable ND filters (a day full of coincidences): https://www.dpreview...readed-x-effect

Do you think this ND would do what they are claiming 



#16 toni-a

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 03:02 PM

I confirm, they DO have a strong cast, even the high quality ones. I'm using them too rarely, and this is a fault of mine, but I've used them enough to tell you that they need some work to get a good colour picture (as you said, B&W is easier).

 

First I tried a medium quality stopper, and was appalled at seeing the strong colour cast - so I thought it made sense to spend more money, and bought a Lee Big Stopper (the smaller, for mirrorless, but same glass). It still has a strong cast, as you'll see by the images I'm going to attach (curiously, I did something with the Big Stopper just the past Saturday).

 

With Lightroom, it was a big problem: while most of the cast can be corrected with white balance, it's not enough. Lightroom allows colour channel correction, but it's fixed. With Capture One... it's much easier :) because you can pick the colours that need correction and selectively fix their hue.

 

Another approach would be to shoot a reference with the ColorChecker Passport and create a specific profile for the shot. This works, but it requires more work, the most annoying stuff being that you need a clamp to keep the color target in a fixed position.

 

So, my current approach is: shoot without the filter, to get a visual reference for what the final rendering should be; first apply strong white balance correction to the photo with the filter, and then selectively adjust the remaining colours that aren't good yet. For my limited experience, this is the fastest way.

 

I'm going to attach: a colour reference (not exactly from the same perspective, but it works), the post-processed final photo, and the unprocessed photo straight from the camera.

Sorry this is exactly what I was trying to say  when I replied  :)



#17 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 03:03 PM

Do you think this ND would do what they are claiming 

 

Honest answer? No. Unless the filter convinces me of the opposite, which I consider a possibility. I was hoping some of us already have experience with this brand, it's unknown to me.

 

Unknown brand + a mouthful of promises = waking up my sceptical parts  ^_^



#18 JoJu

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 03:08 PM

that would be correct if you will shoot one scene and not set a profile for the filter. you shoot the grey card with the filter mounted set balance then shoot, however you can do better and profile your filter.

in fact every camera needs calibration itself and  if you are a color accuracy fanatic every camera/lens/filter combination needs calibration  , You shoot a color target with the  filter and set the color shifts using software you save the profile , this way when using the filter you set the new camera profile and everything is  automatically corrected

here's the hardware and software to do it, it's not expensive but time consuming  

http://xritephoto.co...ew.aspx?ID=1257

 

And you have to do this with cloudy weather, suinny weather, indoor, fluorescent. Oh, and repeatedly every couple of weeks. And for every lens. And temperature... in theory and for a given studio situation tis kind of calibration can save time inpost production. Walking around and getting all light and weather conditions during a day, shooting a grey card or the colorchecker is good enough to correct color drift.



#19 Brightcolours

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 07:18 PM

Can you please clarify?

The cast from an (ND) filter is nothing different as a light source which is not "white" to our vision. So, just like with setting custom WB because of coloured light, just set custom WB because of the filter? Of course, that does require you to use a RAW converter which can handle the custom WB setting.
 
Here is what the Hoya HMC ND400 (9 stops) filter does, colourcast wise (top without filter (1/200th sec), bottom with filter (2 sec)):
Attached File  HoyaND400.jpg   357.6KB   0 downloads

#20 stoppingdown

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 08:39 PM

just set custom WB because of the filter

 

 

 

I'm doing already in the post-processor. This actually fixes a lot - but with the Big Stopper it is not enough, some minor per-colour fix seems to be needed.


stoppingdown.net

 

Sony a6300, Sony a6000, Sony NEX-6, Sony E 10-18mm F4 OSS, Sony Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm F4 ZA OSS, Sony FE 70-200mm F4 G OSS, Sigma 150-600mm ƒ/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary, Samyang 12mm ƒ/2, Sigma 30mm F2.8 DN | A, Meyer Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm ƒ/2.8, Samyang 8mm ƒ/3.5 fish-eye II | Zenit Helios 44-2 58mm ƒ/2 
Plus some legacy Nikkor lenses.




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