[IanCD]

Sorry this is so long... I wanted to get my thoughts down to clarify the issues for me.

I've also posted this on 'Nikonites' and linked in the thread there to Photozone (positive feedback for PZ, I hope!). I hope that's not against some sort of 'etiquette' that I don't know about! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



I have a Nikkor 16-85mm f3.5-5.6G DX



I'm considering adding a wider-angle lens (for landscapes, buildings) - I've read a number of reviews, particularly here on Photozone.

I've also read [url="http://forum.photozone.de/index.php?/topic/715-another-decentered-lens-another-delayed-review/page__st__20"]here[/url] about an increasing number of lenses showing 'decentering' effect... particularly third-party lenses. Klaus posted an "If I had to..." personal ranking of lens quality (control) in that thread, happily (for me) giving Nikon 2nd place. Klaus ranked Sigma and Tokina 9th and 11th respectively.



Some of the otherwise very good reviews of third-party lenses reinforce the hesitance I feel about 'investing' a substantial sum in one of these lenses as I'm not at all confident in being able to test for decentering. My alternative is a (more expensive) Nikon, bought second-hand.

On the other hand, it seems buying Nikon may not be a guarantee of faultlessness: BG_Home says in that thread tried two 12-24mm Nikon lenses and found both were decentered (bad luck or what..?!). So, buying second-hand might get me a decentered Nikon..!



The lenses I'm now considering are:

• Sigma 8-16mm f4.5-5.6 DC HSM
  
  
• Sigma 12-24mm f4.5-5.6 EX DG HSM
  
  
• Nikkor 12-24mm f4G IF-ED DX (second-hand?)
  
  

I considered the Nikkor 10-24mm too but the image quality is reviewed as being (slightly) lower than the 12-24 in the overlapping range, and lower still at 10mm.

I also considered the Tokina 12-24mm f4 AT-X Pro DX - but I've now ruled this out, for reasons below.



All of these lenses are given 3.5 or 4 stars for optical quality in the reviews here. But there are caveats, particularly regarding sample variation for the two Sigma lenses.

• Tokina 12-24: "Optical quality: ***.5" PZ review highlights the very high build quality and very good to excellent resolution, but also notes distortion and CA issues, and contra light problem. Klaus also placed Tokina lowest (11th!) in his "if I had to" ranking of lenses with decentering issues (despite generally higher build quality than other manufacturers). Hence, ruled out.
  
  
• Sigma 8-16: "Optical quality: **** Therefore ... highly recommended (if you can find a good sample)!" This lens also can't take filters. But that IS wide
  
  
• Sigma 12-24mm: "Optical quality: ***.5 Highly recommended ... if you can get a good sample (the tested sample in Canon mount wasn'tquite as good)."
  
  
• Nikon 12-24mm. "Optical quality: ****" Generally a good review, but highlights field curvature and vignetting (though average for APS-C) at 12mm.
  
  

From the reviews the Nikon stands out, but the price (lowest I've found new is ~ £740) is hard for me to justify. That means I'm considering buying one second-hand... but wondering about the decentering issue and what I'd do if I got a bad 2nd-hand copy.



The other aspect of this is that I don't really know how much I would use a wider lens: i.e. how much difference does 12mm make, compared to 16mm? Does it make more difference on DX format, where it's 18mm compared to 24mm? From memory, on full frame (film), primes would have been 21mm and 24mm... I don't recall being aware of 18mm lenses back then (other than fish-eyes).



The attraction in getting a 12-24mm is that I think the extra width would be useful - I just don't know how much of the time. It would also cover the range up to 36mm equivalent, so I wouldn't be changing lenses very much when using for landscapes, trees, architecture, etc. whereas if I bought the 8-16mm Sigma, while it would extend my range more than a 12-24mm, alongside the 16-85mm, I can foresee that I would nearly always be carrying the 16-85mm as well and be changing lenses more often.

• Are there people here who have (experience of) both lenses: starting from 16mm (16-85 / 16-35 etc) and 12mm - how much extra does the 12mm- range give..?
  
  
• Would you be happy / recommend going for a Nikon second-hand (there are a few around for about £500) or is it better to go with the Sigma 12-24mm and return it if I get a bad copy? That's assuming I can develop the competence to check it adequately, and confident enough in my competence to return it!
  
  

Many thanks,

Ian

[janez]

[size="3"]Several years ago I asked the similar question here (on the old forum!). The Klaus’s answer was Sigma 10-20. And I must say it was what I’m looking for: ex wide zoom (thanks again). [/size]



[size="3"]Between 10 and 12 mm is a huge difference (believe me or find on net some photos). Nowadays is range between 8 and 24 mm a terrible jam (DX!). If I need to buy today, I would go to S10-20 again. It has ‘rectangular lines’. But it is smart to test sigma, before you carry out of the store. [/size]



[size="3"]Good luck. Janez[/size]

[Guest]

[quote name='IanCD' timestamp='1301231902' post='7130']

Sorry this is so long... I wanted to get my thoughts down to clarify the issues for me.

I've also posted this on 'Nikonites' and linked in the thread there to Photozone (positive feedback for PZ, I hope!). I hope that's not against some sort of 'etiquette' that I don't know about! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



I have a Nikkor 16-85mm f3.5-5.6G DX



I'm considering adding a wider-angle lens (for landscapes, buildings) - I've read a number of reviews, particularly here on Photozone.

I've also read [url="http://forum.photozone.de/index.php?/topic/715-another-decentered-lens-another-delayed-review/page__st__20"]here[/url] about an increasing number of lenses showing 'decentering' effect... particularly third-party lenses. Klaus posted an "If I had to..." personal ranking of lens quality (control) in that thread, happily (for me) giving Nikon 2nd place. Klaus ranked Sigma and Tokina 9th and 11th respectively.



Some of the otherwise very good reviews of third-party lenses reinforce the hesitance I feel about 'investing' a substantial sum in one of these lenses as I'm not at all confident in being able to test for decentering. My alternative is a (more expensive) Nikon, bought second-hand.

On the other hand, it seems buying Nikon may not be a guarantee of faultlessness: BG_Home says in that thread tried two 12-24mm Nikon lenses and found both were decentered (bad luck or what..?!). So, buying second-hand might get me a decentered Nikon..!



The lenses I'm now considering are:

• Sigma 8-16mm f4.5-5.6 DC HSM
  
  
• Sigma 12-24mm f4.5-5.6 EX DG HSM
  
  
• Nikkor 12-24mm f4G IF-ED DX (second-hand?)
  
  

I considered the Nikkor 10-24mm too but the image quality is reviewed as being (slightly) lower than the 12-24 in the overlapping range, and lower still at 10mm.

I also considered the Tokina 12-24mm f4 AT-X Pro DX - but I've now ruled this out, for reasons below.



All of these lenses are given 3.5 or 4 stars for optical quality in the reviews here. But there are caveats, particularly regarding sample variation for the two Sigma lenses.

• Tokina 12-24: "Optical quality: ***.5" PZ review highlights the very high build quality and very good to excellent resolution, but also notes distortion and CA issues, and contra light problem. Klaus also placed Tokina lowest (11th!) in his "if I had to" ranking of lenses with decentering issues (despite generally higher build quality than other manufacturers). Hence, ruled out.
  
  
• Sigma 8-16: "Optical quality: **** Therefore ... highly recommended (if you can find a good sample)!" This lens also can't take filters. But that IS wide
  
  
• Sigma 12-24mm: "Optical quality: ***.5 Highly recommended ... if you can get a good sample (the tested sample in Canon mount wasn'tquite as good)."
  
  
• Nikon 12-24mm. "Optical quality: ****" Generally a good review, but highlights field curvature and vignetting (though average for APS-C) at 12mm.
  
  

From the reviews the Nikon stands out, but the price (lowest I've found new is ~ £740) is hard for me to justify. That means I'm considering buying one second-hand... but wondering about the decentering issue and what I'd do if I got a bad 2nd-hand copy.



The other aspect of this is that I don't really know how much I would use a wider lens: i.e. how much difference does 12mm make, compared to 16mm? Does it make more difference on DX format, where it's 18mm compared to 24mm? From memory, on full frame (film), primes would have been 21mm and 24mm... I don't recall being aware of 18mm lenses back then (other than fish-eyes).



The attraction in getting a 12-24mm is that I think the extra width would be useful - I just don't know how much of the time. It would also cover the range up to 36mm equivalent, so I wouldn't be changing lenses very much when using for landscapes, trees, architecture, etc. whereas if I bought the 8-16mm Sigma, while it would extend my range more than a 12-24mm, alongside the 16-85mm, I can foresee that I would nearly always be carrying the 16-85mm as well and be changing lenses more often.

• Are there people here who have (experience of) both lenses: starting from 16mm (16-85 / 16-35 etc) and 12mm - how much extra does the 12mm- range give..?
  
  
• Would you be happy / recommend going for a Nikon second-hand (there are a few around for about £500) or is it better to go with the Sigma 12-24mm and return it if I get a bad copy? That's assuming I can develop the competence to check it adequately, and confident enough in my competence to return it!
  
  

Many thanks,

Ian

[/quote]

Ian, take it easy. Don let yourself become confused by tests. Have your priorities right, frist.



1.Lens choices

You seem to shoot Aps-C format. Thus, forget the Sigma 12-24mm, thats a huge Fullframe lens. Better put the Tokina 11-16 and Sigma's 10-20 lenses into the equavtion, unless you intend to go FF soon.



2. Focal length

12mm is an awful lot wider than 16mm, 10mm is wider still and obviusly 8mm is crazy wide. 12mm on Aps-C gives the same file of view of an 18mm lens of FF. 10mm equals 15mm on FF and 8mm equals 12mm (all for Nikon 1.5x crop factor).



I love UWA. There are situations in which I cant do without them and they certainly offer many creative possibilities. However, at the end of the day only 10% of my pictures are shot with an UWA. Other people have fallen so much in love with these kind of lenses, they never take them of their camera.



For cityscapes, landscapes, for any kind of cramped environment (indoors) and cool effects in general, these leneses are great. What you need, nobody can tell you. YOU have to go out to a shop, mount the lenses and see for yourself. Generally, Id say go wider than 12mm, for the real UWA experience. That leaves the Nikon 10-24, Tokina 11-16 and Sigmas 8-16 and 10-20. I'd get the Tokina over the Sigmas and Nikon, if I'd value speed more than wideness. I'd get the Nikon if you dont want to switch lenses back and forth because of its greater zoom range. Id get one of Sigma's 10-20 if I wanted a flexible focal range cheaper than Nikon, and I'D get the SIgma 8-16 if I absolutly needed ultra-ultra-ultra wide and didnt care about speed.



3. Image quality

all of these lenses are more than adaquate for all images viewd on screen (any size) and printed up to 13x18 inches (30x45cm). If you want to print bigger, you need to have a closer look at IQ issues, but in all honesty, the differnces between all three lenses are not huge and vary with focal length. No lens is in all IQ benchmarks better than the others. Thus if you want the highest IQ for huge prints, you must first find out at which focal length you will use the lens most of the times and then look for the best perfomer at that focal length.

Finally your centering concerns: Sigma has a reputation here. I had bad expereinces and I dont buy their lenses anymore. But thats me. All lenses can be decentered. I also had bad experience with Canon in this regard. The best insurance agianst this issue is to buy at shop with a good exchange policy. If the lens is bad, just send it back and save yourself the hassle with warrnty repairs.

[backcountryskier]

If you're concerned about getting a faulty lens, then buy one from a local shop that offers a customer-satisfaction guarantee, a no-questions-asked return policy. It'll cost slightly more than buying from a big internet vendor, but the extra $$ will give you peace of mind.



Don't let the slight possibility of receiving a faulty lens keep you from getting what you want.



I'm a happy owner of 2 Tokinas, 2 Sigmas and 2 Tamrons, none of which are faulty.

[Yakim]

I see nothing wrong in carrying two lenses. I often do that, and even more. That's the beauty of a DSLR system. For all-around lens your 16-85 is just about perfect. If you thing you'll need a wider angle, carry an UWA in addition. After all, it's not a 300/2.8 or 200-400/4 size/weight we're talking about.



Which UWA? I agree with jenbenn. First and foremost, determine how wide is wide enough for you. My UWA is the Canon 10-22 and sometimes I wish I had more. That is why I think you should thoroughly check out the 8-16. Worried about copy problems? Ensure the seller is willing to let you time to test it before committing. In fact, you can adopt this advice to any lens.



BTW, why not consider the Tokina 11-16/2.8? It's wide aperture can be useful in low light for VF brightness and/or handheld ability.

[IanCD]

[quote name='Yakim' timestamp='1301260642' post='7160']

I see nothing wrong in carrying two lenses. I often do that, and even more. That's the beauty of a DSLR system. For all-around lens your 16-85 is just about perfect. If you thing you'll need a wider angle, carry an UWA in addition. After all, it's not a 300/2.8 or 200-400/4 size/weight we're talking about.



Which UWA? I agree with jenbenn. First and foremost, determine how wide is wide enough for you. My UWA is the Canon 10-22 and sometimes I wish I had more. That is why I think you should thoroughly check out the 8-16. Worried about copy problems? Ensure the seller is willing to let you time to test it before committing. In fact, you can adopt this advice to any lens.



BTW, why not consider the Tokina 11-16/2.8? It's wide aperture can be useful in low light for VF brightness and/or handheld ability.

[/quote]

Thanks for the helpful responses. I'll not be bidding for a Nikon on e-bay this week! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



The Tokina 11-16mm has been recommended by a few people. It had been on my next lens 'wish list' until I read about the decentering / quality issues here. All the reviews and feedback in forums I'd read before had rated it very highly... it was the thought of picking up a 'bad copy' that put me off.



Yakim: I wasn't so much concerned with carrying two lenses, just thinking of reducing the number of times I might want to switch back and forth - even photographing the same subject...



Anyway, both the Sigma 8-16 and Tokina 11-16 have very good reviews, so I'll try both when I'm ready... and the Nikon 10-24mm too



For now, I'll take a LOT more pictures with the 16-85 before perhaps 'scratching this itch' and indulging myself..! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Regarding checking for decentering in a good local shop, is it unreasonable to ask to compare (shots from) several copies of the same lens..? And different lenses?

Ian

[Yakim]

[quote name='IanCD' timestamp='1301356499' post='7192']

Yakim: I wasn't so much concerned with carrying two lenses, just thinking of reducing the number of times I might want to switch back and forth - even photographing the same subject...[/quote]



You seem to be shooting in a very different way than me. I mostly pre-select the FL and then use my feet. Well, different strokes....



[quote name='IanCD' timestamp='1301356499' post='7192']

Regarding checking for decentering in a good local shop, is it unreasonable to ask to compare (shots from) several copies of the same lens..? And different lenses?

Ian[/quote]



That depends on the seller. Be kind and keep your fingers crossed.

[backcountryskier]

Regarding checking for decentering

Here's what I do. I buy a lens, take it home, put it on a tripod, target on the wall. Focus with live-view at max magnification. Focus separately for each corner. Sharpness should be about the same for each corner.



Compare to a lens with known characteristics (e.g. your 16-85 at 16 mm). Suppose for argument's sake the lens you bought has is supposed to be slightly weaker in the center but much sharper at the borders (according to photozone tests). Your non-quantitative test should reflect that.



Good luck trying to get multiple copies. My guess is that they'll charge your credit card for all merchandise you take home. Be sure to ask whether they charge a restocking fee.

[IanCD]

Thanks both



[quote name='Yakim' timestamp='1301501390' post='7234']

You seem to be shooting in a very different way than me. I mostly pre-select the FL and then use my feet. Well, different strokes....

[/quote]

Maybe the emphasis on 'same subject' wasn't quite right... more often it would be 'subject type'.

And the way I'm shooting probably has more to do with experience than choice or style - I'm still only a couple months into this! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

I like some of the UWA images I've seen and there are situations where the environment is restricted, so the option of a wider angle might be good sometimes.



[quote name='backcountryskier' timestamp='1301523718' post='7240']

Here's what I do. I buy a lens, take it home, put it on a tripod, target on the wall. Focus with live-view at max magnification. Focus separately for each corner. Sharpness should be about the same for each corner.



Compare to a lens with known characteristics (e.g. your 16-85 at 16 mm). Suppose for argument's sake the lens you bought has is supposed to be slightly weaker in the center but much sharper at the borders (according to photozone tests). Your non-quantitative test should reflect that.



Good luck trying to get multiple copies. My guess is that they'll charge your credit card for all merchandise you take home. Be sure to ask whether they charge a restocking fee.

[/quote]

Thanks for the advice re checking - I'll use that.



I didn't mean get multiple copies to take home! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> ...I thought / meant to try different copies in the shop, but I'm making this too complicated - and getting a bit too focused [ <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> ] on lenses!

I probably need to spend much more time taking pictures and getting to know the wide end of the 16-85 before I consider getting an UWA.



If and when I do go for one I'll consider the Sigma 8-16, Tokina 11-16 and Nikon 10-24... and check it out thoroughly when I get it home.

Thanks again,

Ian