[toni-a]

it is being exhibited now, dunno when will it hit the market.

 

http://petapixel.com/2016/05/20/canon-12...anon-expo/

[davidmanze]

 I don't get it!   It can only be a headline numbers game...

 

 Canon haven't exactly been known for their low noise sensors, at least in RAW  and the 5DR is in essence a slightly dated DSLR with a high resolution sensor, will this be a further sacrifice in image noise?  

 

  I think Canon would be wise to concentrate on a good solid low noise high DR sensor rather than just going full out for Mps, really the 5DR has not been a huge success in terms of overall IQ, yes it's high res, but,

 

...has Canon got any lenses that can resolve 120Mps?

 

 

  Edit:..Your a Canon man BC....What's your call?

[popo]

Not the old MP debate again. If you don't need it, go away. Those that do will look forward to it. Why is it better to be sensor limited than lens limited?

[Rainer]

Eventually, the 'correct' answer to this is "I don't need it' ...

along with 'I don't want it' ... plus an 'I will not buy it'

 

Nevertheless ...I think Canon knows this. And if they

are really producing this camera, they are not doing it

for the monetary profit.

 

Lets face it ... neither will this camera ever do a high 

framerate nor will working with its rawimages be

quick and streamlined. The opposite will be the case.

Everything arround this camera will be 'painfully

slow' if compared with normal dslrs.

 

However ... i think there is a small market for such

cameras ... not only will it be a joy for lenstesters like

Klaus ... forensic police will use it, and also everyone

seeking a way to do quick high quality reproductions

of things that cannot be placed onto a copier.

It will come at a bolt price (if it comes at all).

 

Just my 2 cents ... Rainer

[Klaus]

They also had a 100mp sensor which they never released.

It's just a muscle game.

I do not expect a 100+mp sensor within the next 4 years.

[Brightcolours]

Sony's next FF high res. sensor is rumored to be 100MP. Canon also already has a 250mp APS-H prototype sensor. Phase One's new backs have a 100mp sensor.

Getting less noise at high DR will be a big challenge, because simply the number of photons then just is not there to get a less noisy signal.

[wim]

 I don't get it!   It can only be a headline numbers game...

 

1. Canon haven't exactly been known for their low noise sensors, at least in RAW  and the 5DR is in essence a slightly dated DSLR with a high resolution sensor, will this be a further sacrifice in image noise?  

 

2.  I think Canon would be wise to concentrate on a good solid low noise high DR sensor rather than just going full out for Mps, really the 5DR has not been a huge success in terms of overall IQ, yes it's high res, but,

 

...has Canon got any lenses that can resolve 120Mps?

 

 

  Edit:..Your a Canon man BC....What's your call?

 

1. Canon doesn't provide pre-processed raw files, and hence noise is greater. The advantage is that it is possible to extract more detail from dark areas.

 

2. Of course Canon has lenses which can "resolve 120 MPS". The Nyquist frequency of a 120 MP FF sensor is 187 lp/mm. Any good F/8 lens or faster will manage that, based on Raleigh diffraction limits. IOW, we're still "sensor limited" at this resolution, even if IMO this is a term that should not be used, as it confuses the hell out of most people.

What people in the digital age still don't seem to understand, is that system or final resolution depends both on lens resolution and medium (sensor or film) resolution, and the simple version of the formal to calculate system resolution is

1/(system res.) = 1/(lens res.) + 1/(medium res.)

In short, ANY lens will benefit from a sensor with higher resolution, as the system resolution will be higher, i.e., the resolution that ends up in the raw files.

 

If you then take into account that most good to very good lenses resolve close to the Rayleigh diffraction limits around F/4, which is 400 lp/mm, we still have a long way to go before sensors even get close. A rough calculation learns that we are talking about a 3,5 Gigapixel FF sensor to achieve this.

 

Having said that, the best and sharpest fairly slow B&W film we used in the past, and I am not talking about ortho-film or anything similar here, only resolved up to 125 lp/mm, with colour negatives or slides reaching half that or less.

 

Looking at good amateur negatives, FF/35 mm, the system resolution was about 30 to 40 lp/mm, and for professionals about double that, translated in MPs that is about 6 MP and 12 MP respectively. And we are talking ISO 18 type sensitivity here.

These days we appear to want it al. Highest resolution, no noise, extremely high isos. That just doesn't add up. People should realize that these days at 3200 and 6400 iso we tend to get better results than we used to get at 18 and 15 iso with film, at much higher resolution, and in full colour.

 

Kind regards, Wim

[wim]

Sony's next FF high res. sensor is rumored to be 100MP. Canon also already has a 250mp APS-H prototype sensor. Phase One's new backs have a 100mp sensor.

Getting less noise at high DR will be a big challenge, because simply the number of photons then just is not there to get a less noisy signal.

 

I wonder what the cost will be with regard to that Sony sensor, how much data is lost once it reaches the raw file.

Of course Phase One backs have a much larger sensor, so it will have in principle less problems with noise anyway.

 

What I do see happening is that all camera manufacturers eventually will preprocess images in-camera in order to get as noise free raws as possible.

 

Kind regards, Wim

[Brightcolours]

1. The main reason why Canon sensors are more noisy is just more read noise. Not much to do with pre processing or non-pre-processing, but rather just less noise accumulation during ADC (on chip, less transport of the signal) That Canon black level "setting" is more correct than how Nikon does it, does not matter much in respect to DR. 

 

2. Already my 20mp 6D loses resolution to diffraction at f8..... See the 5DS-R tests to see how the 50mp sensor gets hit (although the Photozone results are not reliable as to the amount of loss, due to the sharpening used... Lenstip's MTF results give a clearer picture regarding diffraction resolution loss).

 

See the Otus 55mm f1.4 tested on a Nikon D3X as example:



It is not as if the optics get worse when closing down, they do not. They "improve" until diffraction nullifies that again. 

But lets not be overly dramatic about 120mp.. To double resolution from the 50mp 5DS, you will need a 200mp sensor.

[davidmanze]

I was reading that it was off sensor electronics that caused extra noise,and that their latest sensors have now incorporated on sensor signal amplification (as stated by BC), hence their recent improvements in DR and noise..Their new flagship 1DXIII is supposed to have near Nikon performance.


Klaus stated that F4 was a limiting aperture factor in terms of diffraction for the Canon 50Mps sensor, that would suggest to me that for a 120Mps sensor (at a guess) we would be talking about lenses of F2.8 to avoid diffraction limits, that will surely put the cat among the pigeons to find lenses at that level!

Anyway if this sensor ever comes to fruition or more likely as has been said industrial usage fruition, it is doubtful that it will be used by general photogs, just the file handling, computer power required and storage space would be a logistical nightmare.