09-06-2010, 05:22 PM
[ name='Brightcolours' timestamp='1283766427' post='2517']
That is what Iove about internet, all these internet myths that keep on going around.
[color="#0000ff"]
[color="#0000ff"][/color]Yep. Like the one about filters that filters do not protect a lens <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />. As I mentioned in another thread, among others, my camera retailer friend, who sees on average at least 1 damaged filter or lens a week, has a different experience to yours.
[/color]
It is VERY hard to scratch a front element, to do so you need something that is harder. Not easy to find, most sand grains are not even as hard as the coated elements.
[color="#0000ff"]Most coatings with few exceptions are actually softer than the lens surface itself, and sandgrains being crystalline silica are harder than glass, which is in essence non-crystalline silica, and softer than sand by at least 1/2 a unit on the scale of Mohs, which is a logarithmic scale from 1 to 10 (10 being diamond). In short, sand can scratch a lens, and quite easily as a matter of fact.
[/color]
Basically you can NOT scratch a front element when you normally clean it (with microfiber lens cloth and a drop of lens cleaning fluid).
[color="#0000ff"]You can when you don't blow it clean first, and don't make sure that any residu left on the lens isn't a particle of some sort. Even then, cleaning always is in essence a form of polishing, which one shouldn't really do to a perfectly polished lens surface. The polishing materials used for e.g. glass fibre, are so smooth to the touch, that one wouldn't believe they are actually abrasive. However, they are.[/color]
And if you are leaving "cleaning marks"... then you are not cleaning it, obviously.
If you are paranoid about it, also get a soft lens cleaning brush, with or without blower, to get rid of dust and any other particles before cleaning.
[color="#0000ff"]That's actually a must.[/color]
If you actually leave cleaning marks on the front element... you leave cleaning marks on the filter! [/quote]
[color="#0000ff"]Not true. It depends on the filter. A B&W MRC filter cleans very, very easily, with virtually no effort. This can't be said of most of the front lenses and their coatings.
[/color]
Most arguments for "protective filters" are myths and bogus, born out some irrational fear and fueled by hearsay stories.
[color="#0000ff"]Oh? I guess my retailer friend doesn't count in that case, even though I witnessed some of the damage done in person, and even though filters protected my own lenses in certain cases, like a fall down a cliff, about 150 meters lower in altitude than where its fall started. I guess that is also all myth.
[/color]
The easiest way to scratch a front element is this (most common in fact):
Put an thin sheet of optical glass in front of the front element (filter). Drop the lens or bump your camera bag against a rock or something else.
Find out that that THIN sheet of glass did not withstand the shock, and broke, leaving sharp shards of glass to scratch your front element.
[color="#0000ff"]By your own reckoning, if sand can't scratch the front lens, neither can glass, as it is softer than sand, i.e, crystalline quartz. With impurities it gets even harder.
[/color]
[color="#0000ff"]BTW, I have seen quite a few lenses that had damaged front lens surfaces due to incorrect cleaning procedures. Essentially, they were polished unevenly with small scratch marks as a result, most of the time anyway. Sometimes the damge was more obvious.
[/color]If you are lucky, and the filter glass splinters did not scratch the front element, tell everyone on internet how your filter saves your lens (it didn't, your lens would have been fine without).
[color="#0000ff"]It actually did save the lens, see above. And again, if sand can't scratch a lens, neither can glass, it is softer than sand. Furthermore, the metal filter ring adds rigidity to the lens.[/color]
Fact: A lens cap protects the front elements against the bumps. It does not have a thin sheet of glass to break.
[color="#0000ff"]True enough. But what if it gets bumped off , e.g. by a fall? Happened to me.
[/color]
Fact: A hood protects the lens in a fall, as it will act as a shock absorber. It may crack, but will save the lens. It also acts as a buffer against bumping into things.
[color="#0000ff"]Also true. But again, what it it gets bumped off, or when it isn't mounted yet? Happened to me too.
[/color]Fact: UV filters DO degrade IQ, sometimes ruining a photo. Even if you buy expensive multi coated ones.
[color="#0000ff"]By 0.3 % at most. That is very rare to happen. BTW, the 100-400L with a filter not AF-ing well is pure myth. Just in case soemone drags up that myth. I should know. Owned two, both always had/have filters mounted.[/color]
My advice: Only put a filter on when there is something to filter, or when there is something to protect the lens against (and to which the filter can actually protect it). So, if you plan to shoot at a beach when it is stormy, or go shoot a motocross race, I can imagine a protective filter will give you peace of mind. Some lenses which are weather sealed want a filter to complete sealing, but no lenses you are considering are weather sealed. And you are probably not weather sealed yourself... <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />. Finger grease is not something to protect a lens from, as it is easier to clean a front element that to clean a filter (due to the shape).
[color="#0000ff"]Based on over 35 years of cleaning lenses and filters, both from a hobby and professional POV, I completely disagree. Most filters are more easy to clean than lenses are. And the filters with water and grease repellent coatings are extremely easy to clean. It is good to see that some of the newer lenses now also provide this type of coating, especially if they can't take filters.
[/color]I have never used protective filters (only used UV filters when they were needed with film), and I have never had a scratch on any filter element (front or back). And I am not particularly careful with my equipment, and I HAVE broken a lens hood with a fall of the lens. I currently have 5 Nikon, 3 Canon, 2 Sigma, 1 Tamron and 1 Tokina lenses without any scratch and with nicely cleaned elements without cleaning marks. And I have not thrown away money on filters with thin sheets of glass that can scratch lenses when they break.
[color="#0000ff"]As I mentioned, if sand can't scratch a lens, neither can filters. The rocks a lens falls on, can scratch a lens, yes. Most rocks are much harder than a lens, and there also is the impact.
[/color]
[color="#0000ff"]The problem with this whole debate is whether you believe it or not. I believe a filter protects a lens, because I have seen many examples where it did. You don't believe in it, good for you. You also don't use a blower I gather, just a microfiber cloth plus some solution. Fine, you have been very lucky. I once SAW somebody making a scratch on a lens with a sand grain, because he was too lazy to blow it clean first. Let me say, he wasn't very pleased.
Ah well, whatever, really ... <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> I didn't want to get involved in another pro-contra filter debate, and now I did anyway <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />.
Kind regards, Wim
P.S.:removed all quote marks, my comments in blue, as I had too many quote blocks.[/color]
That is what Iove about internet, all these internet myths that keep on going around.
[color="#0000ff"]
[color="#0000ff"][/color]Yep. Like the one about filters that filters do not protect a lens <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />. As I mentioned in another thread, among others, my camera retailer friend, who sees on average at least 1 damaged filter or lens a week, has a different experience to yours.[/color]
It is VERY hard to scratch a front element, to do so you need something that is harder. Not easy to find, most sand grains are not even as hard as the coated elements.
[color="#0000ff"]Most coatings with few exceptions are actually softer than the lens surface itself, and sandgrains being crystalline silica are harder than glass, which is in essence non-crystalline silica, and softer than sand by at least 1/2 a unit on the scale of Mohs, which is a logarithmic scale from 1 to 10 (10 being diamond). In short, sand can scratch a lens, and quite easily as a matter of fact.
[/color]
Basically you can NOT scratch a front element when you normally clean it (with microfiber lens cloth and a drop of lens cleaning fluid).
[color="#0000ff"]You can when you don't blow it clean first, and don't make sure that any residu left on the lens isn't a particle of some sort. Even then, cleaning always is in essence a form of polishing, which one shouldn't really do to a perfectly polished lens surface. The polishing materials used for e.g. glass fibre, are so smooth to the touch, that one wouldn't believe they are actually abrasive. However, they are.[/color]
And if you are leaving "cleaning marks"... then you are not cleaning it, obviously.
If you are paranoid about it, also get a soft lens cleaning brush, with or without blower, to get rid of dust and any other particles before cleaning.
[color="#0000ff"]That's actually a must.[/color]
If you actually leave cleaning marks on the front element... you leave cleaning marks on the filter! [/quote]
[color="#0000ff"]Not true. It depends on the filter. A B&W MRC filter cleans very, very easily, with virtually no effort. This can't be said of most of the front lenses and their coatings.
[/color]
Most arguments for "protective filters" are myths and bogus, born out some irrational fear and fueled by hearsay stories.
[color="#0000ff"]Oh? I guess my retailer friend doesn't count in that case, even though I witnessed some of the damage done in person, and even though filters protected my own lenses in certain cases, like a fall down a cliff, about 150 meters lower in altitude than where its fall started. I guess that is also all myth.
[/color]
The easiest way to scratch a front element is this (most common in fact):
Put an thin sheet of optical glass in front of the front element (filter). Drop the lens or bump your camera bag against a rock or something else.
Find out that that THIN sheet of glass did not withstand the shock, and broke, leaving sharp shards of glass to scratch your front element.
[color="#0000ff"]By your own reckoning, if sand can't scratch the front lens, neither can glass, as it is softer than sand, i.e, crystalline quartz. With impurities it gets even harder.
[/color]
[color="#0000ff"]BTW, I have seen quite a few lenses that had damaged front lens surfaces due to incorrect cleaning procedures. Essentially, they were polished unevenly with small scratch marks as a result, most of the time anyway. Sometimes the damge was more obvious.
[/color]If you are lucky, and the filter glass splinters did not scratch the front element, tell everyone on internet how your filter saves your lens (it didn't, your lens would have been fine without).
[color="#0000ff"]It actually did save the lens, see above. And again, if sand can't scratch a lens, neither can glass, it is softer than sand. Furthermore, the metal filter ring adds rigidity to the lens.[/color]
Fact: A lens cap protects the front elements against the bumps. It does not have a thin sheet of glass to break.
[color="#0000ff"]True enough. But what if it gets bumped off , e.g. by a fall? Happened to me.
[/color]
Fact: A hood protects the lens in a fall, as it will act as a shock absorber. It may crack, but will save the lens. It also acts as a buffer against bumping into things.
[color="#0000ff"]Also true. But again, what it it gets bumped off, or when it isn't mounted yet? Happened to me too.
[/color]Fact: UV filters DO degrade IQ, sometimes ruining a photo. Even if you buy expensive multi coated ones.
[color="#0000ff"]By 0.3 % at most. That is very rare to happen. BTW, the 100-400L with a filter not AF-ing well is pure myth. Just in case soemone drags up that myth. I should know. Owned two, both always had/have filters mounted.[/color]
My advice: Only put a filter on when there is something to filter, or when there is something to protect the lens against (and to which the filter can actually protect it). So, if you plan to shoot at a beach when it is stormy, or go shoot a motocross race, I can imagine a protective filter will give you peace of mind. Some lenses which are weather sealed want a filter to complete sealing, but no lenses you are considering are weather sealed. And you are probably not weather sealed yourself... <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />. Finger grease is not something to protect a lens from, as it is easier to clean a front element that to clean a filter (due to the shape).[color="#0000ff"]Based on over 35 years of cleaning lenses and filters, both from a hobby and professional POV, I completely disagree. Most filters are more easy to clean than lenses are. And the filters with water and grease repellent coatings are extremely easy to clean. It is good to see that some of the newer lenses now also provide this type of coating, especially if they can't take filters.
[/color]I have never used protective filters (only used UV filters when they were needed with film), and I have never had a scratch on any filter element (front or back). And I am not particularly careful with my equipment, and I HAVE broken a lens hood with a fall of the lens. I currently have 5 Nikon, 3 Canon, 2 Sigma, 1 Tamron and 1 Tokina lenses without any scratch and with nicely cleaned elements without cleaning marks. And I have not thrown away money on filters with thin sheets of glass that can scratch lenses when they break.
[color="#0000ff"]As I mentioned, if sand can't scratch a lens, neither can filters. The rocks a lens falls on, can scratch a lens, yes. Most rocks are much harder than a lens, and there also is the impact.
[/color]
[color="#0000ff"]The problem with this whole debate is whether you believe it or not. I believe a filter protects a lens, because I have seen many examples where it did. You don't believe in it, good for you. You also don't use a blower I gather, just a microfiber cloth plus some solution. Fine, you have been very lucky. I once SAW somebody making a scratch on a lens with a sand grain, because he was too lazy to blow it clean first. Let me say, he wasn't very pleased.
Ah well, whatever, really ... <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> I didn't want to get involved in another pro-contra filter debate, and now I did anyway <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />.Kind regards, Wim
P.S.:removed all quote marks, my comments in blue, as I had too many quote blocks.[/color]
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
