[Brightcolours]

thxbb12, you give some good examples. The custom settings example for the Panasonic works the same for Canon. Canon's menu structure has 5 groups: shooting settings (red) playback settings (blue), camera Setup section (yellow), custom functions (orange) and "My Menu" (to group your most used settings in one place, green).

 

You set all the settings on the camera (6D in this case), go to the yellow menu section, 4th yellow tab (Canon divides longer sections in multiple tabs, to avoid having to scroll through menus in search of something), select 4th menu item "Custom shooting mode (C1, C2)". You then get a menu item to register current settings, either in C1 or in C2. Also a menu item to clear either C1 or C2, and a menu item to enable or disable "Auto update" for the settings in C1 and C2. The C1 and C2 modes are on the mode dial on top left on the camera.

 

Simple, well thought out menu and UI.

[thxbb12]

thxbb12, you give some good examples. The custom settings example for the Panasonic works the same for Canon. Canon's menu structure has 5 groups: shooting settings (red) playback settings (blue), camera Setup section (yellow), custom functions (orange) and "My Menu" (to group your most used settings in one place, green).

 

You set all the settings on the camera (6D in this case), go to the yellow menu section, 4th yellow tab (Canon divides longer sections in multiple tabs, to avoid having to scroll through menus in search of something), select 4th menu item "Custom shooting mode (C1, C2)". You then get a menu item to register current settings, either in C1 or in C2. Also a menu item to clear either C1 or C2, and a menu item to enable or disable "Auto update" for the settings in C1 and C2. The C1 and C2 modes are on the mode dial on top left on the camera.

 

Simple, well thought out menu and UI.

 

Thanks for the info BC. I've never used a Canon camera that's why I don't mention it in my comments.

However, from what I read the menus and UI seem to be somewhat similar to Panasonic which is fairly simple and logical.

[Brightcolours]

Thanks for the info BC. I've never used a Canon camera that's why I don't mention it in my comments.

However, from what I read the menus and UI seem to be somewhat similar to Panasonic which is fairly simple and logical.

Yeah, same with the image quality setting. Shooting settings 1st red tab, 1st menu option reads "Image quality". There you can select JPEG or RAW or both, which image size RAW and or JPEG files have to have, and in which quality JPEG should be saved. Imagine that.

 

Not everything is rosy of course, the 6D for instance lacks a button to directly go to white balance menu.  :lol:

[stoppingdown]

Since I have used anything from compacts with barely to no VF to rangefinders to slrs, both analog (from a very young age) and digital, in formats from wide MF to 110 and even smaller digitally, and am fairly technically inclined, I may have an advantage I guess.
 

 

 

I suppose you're right, you don't experience problems because you have a lot of acquaintance with different systems. OTOH I've been always a single-camera-type user (Nikon DSLRs first and Sony mirrorless now).

 

The only point I disagree with JoJu is the comparison with cars. Sure, we all can enter and drive a car that we've just rented and never owned before. But that "drive" probably means "basic usage", and basic usage is not a problem for cameras too. When you goes through advanced features such as sport style of driving, including the availability of different presets in the electronics, 4WD, etc... you do need some time to get into acquaintance with the car.

 

So cars' UIs are not so different than cameras' UIs.

 

PS I still recall the first time I drove a car with automatic gear, about 20 years ago. It was a rented car in San Francisco. First I took a few minutes to ensure I had correctly understood how to safely park; then, when I exited the car rental, I found myself at the very top of the typical steep downhill road in San Francisco, and I was *really* feeling uncomfortable for not having the clutch...

[JJ_SO]

...

The only point I disagree with JoJu is the comparison with cars. Sure, we all can enter and drive a car that we've just rented and never owned before. But that "drive" probably means "basic usage", and basic usage is not a problem for cameras too.....

 

I stick with the example although I never drove a Tesla, Lamborghini or other special cars.

 

However, the feature of setting the AF-ON button will effectively lead to blurred images. Less experienced users are used to AF-ON when the shutter button is half-pressed.

 

There are a couple of possibilities I can imagine which leave a less frequent camera user helpless. Some cameras are for that reason equipped with a "green wave", put every switch on green and you're good to go. An Nikon D4 doesn't have much of green buttons and  I replied to this generalsation. Cameras, especially their software based interfaces are far away from any standard even if there are some common symbols liek trashbin, playback and MENU (gateway to hell).

[wim]

Is the E-M5 II recent enough? That's the camera my dad uses and I borrowed it during my last vacation. Minimum shutter speed is not available. Auto ISO range is not what I'm talking about. If you had used a Pentax or Nikon body, you would know what I mean. I'm talking about the ability to bias the 1/focal_length algorithm the camera uses. Olympus forums are filled with people asking for an option to set the minimum shutter speed, yet it's still not available (and don't tell me the flash sync is a work around : it's not).

 

As to HDR stacking, you say it yourself "you do have to do the processing yourself". That's what I'm talking about, the camera doesn't save a single RAW file you can use.

 

As far as RAW processing goes, several other manufacturers let you convert RAW -> jpeg in camera: Fuji, Olympus and Pentax at least. However, it's clunky and inconvenient. Read my text again.

 

AFAIK, Pen F and EM-5 Mk II have more or less the same menus, so it should be possible to set a minimum shutter speed, as well as a maximum iso. I owned the EM-5 II for a fairly short time prior to getting en EM-1 II, so I can't remember for sure, but it certainly is easily possible on a Pen F.

 

Regarding HDR-stacking: considering the stacking options, personally I would like to control the stacking myself. I am used to using a modified Zone-system, originally for 35 mm negatives, and adapted for digital. Generally speaking, I find a DR of 10 or more plenty, as monitors display a DR of 8 at best, and prints 6. If I want to "compress" more into what is displayed, I would like to control stuff exactly as I'd want it, to keep things as natural looking as possible, and don't want to be bound by a standard type in-camera processing algorithm, apart from the file format to have to be different as well (tiff or dng I guess, for Raw). When I shoot HDR, I shoot it very deliberately, and personally have no need for a camera created Raw (or jpeg).

 

I don't know where you get the idea HDR cannot be done in Raw, however. You have plenty options to shoot a set of Raws for HDR stacking. F.e., an automatic set of 7 shots at 3 stops exposure difference results in more DR than even the brightest daylight with darkest shadows possible. And converting these to jpegs I would always want to do and therefore control myself, IOW, in PP.

 

As to reading your text (again): I was on a small mobile device, which means I answered to specific remarks rather than all - it is hard to keep on scrolling backwards and forwards all the time, with most of the screen taken up by a keyboard.

 

You must be the only user who thinks Olympus menus are logical, well organized, and make sense. Olympus cameras are great, but menus are the recurrent complaints of a lot of experienced people who have shot with many systems (Dpreview, Thom Hogan, Nasim Mansurov, etc.).

 

Just to illustrate my point, here are two examples quoted from http://m43blog.dthorpe.net/2015/06/10/mi...u-matters/ comparing Panasonic and Olympus menus:

 

1) Custom settings

One of the best features of digital cameras is the ability store often used settings for instant recall.  Both camera work this the same way. Go to the shooting mode you want to use, aperture priority, manual, whatever. Go through the menus setting everything as you want it. Brilliant! You now have a digital camera that works for you. Ok, lets save that so that it can be instantly recalled.

 

Panasonic

Go to the Custom Menu and choose Cust. Set Mem. There, select C1 for example and OK to confirm it. Now, when you set C1 on the mode dial, you summon up – surprise, surprise! – the settings you just set.

 

Olympus

Set everything as you want it, same as the Panasonic. So far, so good. Now, go to Shooting Menu 1. Select Reset/Myset. Now MySet1, Set and Yes. Now go to Custom Menu section B, Button/Dial/Lever, then Mode Dial Function where you can set MySet1 to any mode dial function except a custom one, since there isn’t any such thing. So find a mode like Art that you won’t use and put it there. In future, to recall your custom setting 1, set the mode dial to Art. Now I don’t know who thought of that but I can tell you that I won’t be hiring him to design my new house. He can argue as long as he likes that labelling the back door  ‘front’ because you can walk through the house to the front door is perfectly logical, I’m not buying it.

 

2) Setting the file quality

 

Panasonic

Rec Menu, Quality.

 

Olympus

Shooting Menu 1 and then this image :

 



 

Now I can’t tell what that symbol means. It looks a bit like one of those little guys that the Space Invaders used to kill. Or was it one of the Space Invaders themselves? Or a radio telescope? Maybe an Anglo-Saxon warrior’s helmet that came off his head after he was slain? Maybe it sets the camera to Shotgun Mode where pressing the button peppers an uncooperative  subject with buckshot? I’d have liked that for sessions with one or two of the footballers I’ve had the misfortune to have to photograph. Whatever it is, how does it mean ‘record mode to take pictures or movies’ as the Info button informs you? Couldn’t you just print ‘Quality’ there in place of the icon? Why wouldn’t you? There’s more but I think I’ve made my point.

 

FWIW, considering the number of options available with an Olympus body, there is a logical subdivision, which I find way more natural than with e.g. Panasonic, where I always either do not have enough options, or have problems finding the option I need, and not so with Olympus.

 

Setting a custom mode via the Custom mode settings is as easy as with any camera. Set up your settings as required/liked, and save it to one of the Custom modes on the Mode dial, or as you suggest for the E-M5 II, allocate it to Art, or to one of the available Myset options. I don't see the problem, apart from it having no specific Custom mode options via a mode dial. It works as it does with any other camera with custum modes I have ever used. An E-M5, II or I, was never intended as a pro-camera or top of the range camera. Using the Art mode as a Custom mode, does allow you to have two different modes by the flick of a dial, however. In the mean time, you can easily set up many MySets, and choose between them via the menu. I don't see the problem. See here: http://www.lessgearmorephotos.com/myset-...mpus-om-d/

 

I do think they will likely add Custom modes to the Mk III, however. The Pen F has 4 custom modes, the E-M1 II has 3. In addition, with the current firmware, you can save and restore custom profiles very easily if need be; the E-M1 II already had this option, it was added to the latest firmware with the Pen F.

 

Of course, on the Pen F obviously there is a seperate Art dial, and each of the settings can be set to any art filter you like via Picture Mode in shooting menu 1, which can be finetuned to your own liking. When you're used to that it is a great option.

 

As to the image quality menu option, once you have checked it out, you are not likely to forget - and isn't that the idea of a menu option? . The image is like an option choice of less or more pixels, that is how I see it anyway. In addition, to me this is just getting used to how a specific menu option looks like.

 

In the end, one needs to get to know the intricacies of each camera brand and model in order to become a master of it, and considering the amount of options an Olympus has, that may look daunting at first, but OTOH it is really great one can set it up exactly to one's liking. And standard or basic options are just as easy to control and set as with any other camera, just as it is with the basic options and controls required to be able to drive a car.

 

In short, no, you did not make your point. You just need a bit more time to get acquainted with the more advanced options, because they are, just as with cars and other pieces of equipment, implemented differently than with other brands. It'll allow you, straight out of the box, just as is the case with other cameras, to create great pictures, just using the standard controls and dials.

 

You are IMO trying to make a point just for making a point, based on relatively superficial first hand knowledge, and some writing on the internet. I'd suggest, however, to get better acquainted with the camera, and you may actually come to like the way things are implemented. And Olympus does listen to its customers, just consider the auto-iso and minimum shutter speed limts, as well as being able to save custom profiles off camera, and I am sure there is more.

 

Regards, Wim

 

Edit:

As to HDR (which I rarely use as mentioned above), upon checking it appears both Pen F and E-M1 II have the option to generate a single Raw and/or jpeg from 4 shots, with a high contrast and a super high contrast option. A little research showed that the E-M1 Mk I, E-M5 II, and the E-M10 I and II also have this option. I guess that is your last objection out of the way. See also http://blog.martinbelan.com/2016/01/test...mpus-om-d/.

[wim]

I stick with the example although I never drove a Tesla, Lamborghini or other special cars.

 

However, the feature of setting the AF-ON button will effectively lead to blurred images. Less experienced users are used to AF-ON when the shutter button is half-pressed.

 

There are a couple of possibilities I can imagine which leave a less frequent camera user helpless. Some cameras are for that reason equipped with a "green wave", put every switch on green and you're good to go. An Nikon D4 doesn't have much of green buttons and  I replied to this generalsation. Cameras, especially their software based interfaces are far away from any standard even if there are some common symbols liek trashbin, playback and MENU (gateway to hell).

 

A user who is savvy enough to use the AF-ON button surely would tell you either to use it for focusing, or ask you to just press the shutter button, as he/she would have pre-focused already .... .

 

I know I do ....

 

As to the green wave, that is called P-mode on many cameras .

 

Kind regards, Wim

[wim]

Thanks for the info BC. I've never used a Canon camera that's why I don't mention it in my comments.

However, from what I read the menus and UI seem to be somewhat similar to Panasonic which is fairly simple and logical.

 

The problem with Panasonic menus is that once you get into profile options, soem stuff that one expects to eb logically available, like aperture settings/aperture priority, no longer is. It means one has to set that beforehand, and only thereafter set a profile option. A real pain for a less sophisticated user IMO. There are others as well.

 

Even Canon menus are not all that logical at times, e.g. with mirror-locking and related camera slap prevention timing (can't remember the official name now, it is the timing you can set for the pause between mirror-up and actual opening of the shutter, for macro etc.). That is relatively deeply hidden, and I added those to MyMeny in order to find them easily enough.

 

In short, the non-standard options always have some idiosyncracies, with any camera brands, which one will have to get used to in order to make optimum use of these cameras.

 

Kind regards, Wim

[JJ_SO]

....

I don't know where you get the idea HDR cannot be done in Raw, however. You have plenty options to shoot a set of Raws for HDR stacking. F.e., an automatic set of 7 shots at 3 stops exposure difference results in more DR than even the brightest daylight with darkest shadows possible. And converting these to jpegs I would always want to do and therefore control myself, IOW, in PP.

....

 

Sigma introduced a SFD-mode (super fine detail) for it's dp and sd quattro series. Result is a set of 7 raw shots, occupying 350 MB on the memory card and taking ages to be stored and double as long to get unpacked, adjusted and merged with (at the moment) disappointing results. You can decide for yourself how much wind is allowed in landscape shots.

 

The way Olympus creates higher resolution shots is a bit different, I thought - they save one RAW. The same could be done with HDR and focus stacks.

 

I don't think you will do a better job in post when your first transfer a 14 bit RAW to a 8 bit JPG to recreate a 16 bit tif or whatever. I'm a big fan of "staying on the RAW track as long as possible and only finally change coaches".

 

thxbb12 is right, there's not much reason to pretend as if RAW is something pure coming out of  a camera - Fuji and Olympus AFAIK already do lens corrections in RAW,

[wim]

Sigma introduced a SFD-mode (super fine detail) for it's dp and sd quattro series. Result is a set of 7 raw shots, occupying 350 MB on the memory card and taking ages to be stored an ddou le as long to get unpacked, adjusted and merged with (at the moment) disappointing results. You can decide for yourself how much wind is allowed in landscape shots.

 

The way Olympus creates higher resolution shots is a bit different, I thought - they save one RAW. The same could be done with HDR and focus stacks.

 

I don't think you will do a better job in post when your first transfer a 14 bit RAW to a 8 bit JPG to recreate a 16 bit tif or whatever. I'm a big fan of "staying on the RAW track as long as possible and only finally change coaches".

 

thxbb12 is right, there's not much reason to pretend as if RAW is something pure coming out of  a camera - Fuji and Olympus AFAIK already do lens corrections in RAW,

Hi JoJu,

 

I wasn't talking about High Resolution Mode, but about HDR-sets. Yes, HR-mode is an option, and it works well, but HDR-sets can be created as well, up to 7 shots 3 EV apart in exposure, in Raw and/or jpeg (3 shots, 5 shot, 7 shots, either 2 EV or 3 EV apart). The E-M1 II also allows you to generate a 4-shot single output HDR as well, either very high or super high contrast, and it does both Raw and jpeg.

 

I just realised the Pen F can do this too, so I better edit my reply higher up .

 

Olympus does not do lens corrections in Raw. They may store a lens profile in Raw, but lens corrections are only applied to jpegs, and when displayed via Olympus software. Check the reviews here on Photozone to see corrected and uncorrected distortion for Oly lenses.

 

Kind regards, Wim