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Forums > Back > The Luminous Landscape reviews the Pentax 645D
#21
[quote name='wim' timestamp='1290328146' post='4296']

Considering that in reality it is an UWA medium format lens based on its image circle, and way wider than anything else out there with a a similar image circle, it is actually very surprising. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Tongue' />

[/quote]



I'd agree with you if that stayed the same even after the lens is shifted. But given that using the lens unshifted is like using an FF lens on a crop sensor (because it's designed with a larger image circle), you'd expect the corners to be of decent quality when the lens is not shifted... no?
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#22
[quote name='BG_Home' timestamp='1290341651' post='4302']

I'd agree with you if that stayed the same even after the lens is shifted. But given that using the lens unshifted is like using an FF lens on a crop sensor (because it's designed with a larger image circle), you'd expect the corners to be of decent quality when the lens is not shifted... no?

[/quote]

No, not necessarily. By definition MF lenses have lower resolution than FF or APS-C lenses, and in a rectilinear lens the large AoV makes for losing definition and therefore sharpness towards the corners at an alarming rate, and that is pure optics laws at work.



I reckon this is a lens which is diffraction limited at all apertures, i.e., it is sharper than is physically possible to show in an image. When used as a pure 17 mm, non-shifted IOW, it just doesn't seem to lose definition at all towards the corners.



Regarding the corners: I found that shifted it is equally sharp to the Nikkor 14-24 in the corners (read: it starts smearing details a little, just like the Nikkor, although that's nothing compared to the Sigma 12-24 EX), just that it has probably a little more lateral CA in very high contrast transitions in those corners. Do note that with maximal horizontal shift it essentially becomes a 10.2 mm lens, which is quite a bit wider than the Nikkor at 14 mm, or even the Sigma at 12 mm. So, comparable sharpness to th eNikkor at full shift is quite a feat, if you ask me.



Here is a sample, handheld, shifted about 7-8 mm up to correct the worst of the converging lines (but keeping a little for a natural view), making this a 12 mm lens for AoV at the top here.



[Image: castle09bw.jpg]



BTW, my feet were only just outside the image.



In the full size image all details in the stone and grass in left and right top is preserved. It's really amazing how good this lens is, especially considering it is an extreme UWA....



Obviously, this image was processed. What I did here was a B&W conversion, contrast and brightness adjustments, some dodging for the underside of the supporting stone on top of the doorway (the weathering looked exactly like the cloud structure, so that was kinda neat - here the DR of the 5D II shows what it is capable of in combination with this lens), and some dodging for the tower and the path leading up to it. Oh, and some partial sharpening of the tower itself, 50%. Upon downsizing I had to use bicubic smoother rather than the normal bicubic sharper, because using bicubic sharper caused sharpening artefacts <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Tongue' />. I couldn't believe it when I saw this, it really is stunning... Furthermore, this lens actually renders contrast excellently despite its large number of elements (18!), and has excellent microcontrast too, which makes it also stand out from the Nikkor. Despite being an UWA, this lens is capable of 3D-like images.



Hmm, we really hijacked this thread now for real. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
Away
  Reply
#23
[quote name='BG_Home' timestamp='1290341651' post='4302']

But given that using the lens unshifted is like using an FF lens on a crop sensor (because it's designed with a larger image circle), you'd expect the corners to be of decent quality when the lens is not shifted... no?

[/quote]

What matter is that to anyone if it produces the best images? What extra points do you get for using anything less than the best?



If I were you, I'd see it as the 17L besting the other lenses while still offering more features like tilt and shift which are quite important for its intended use.



For example, instead of stopping down beyond the diffraction limited aperture or not being able to use the optimal aperture, as it would be the case with other lenses, on the TS-E it's possible to maximise the DOF using tilt and/or correct verticals using shift while using a good aperture for better sharpness. But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Tongue' />



GTW
  Reply
#24
[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1290406392' post='4319']

What matter is that to anyone if it produces the best images? What extra points do you get for using anything less than the best?



If I were you, I'd see it as the 17L besting the other lenses while still offering more features like tilt and shift which are quite important for its intended use.



For example, instead of stopping down beyond the diffraction limited aperture or not being able to use the optimal aperture, as it would be the case with other lenses, on the TS-E it's possible to maximise the DOF using tilt and/or correct verticals using shift while using a good aperture for better sharpness. But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



GTW

[/quote]

Geno,



Try say this on any of the other forums out there....



The Z-brigade will be all over you <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />.



Kind regards, Wim <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
Away
  Reply
#25
[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1290406392' post='4319']

But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />

[/quote]



Honestly, I really don't like what you're implying here, and I wish you'd keep that kind of drivel for yourself next time.
  Reply
#26
[quote name='wim' timestamp='1290348142' post='4306']



Hmm, we really hijacked this thread now for real. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



[/quote]



Great shot, well worth a quick hijack... <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />
  Reply
#27
[quote name='BG_Home' timestamp='1290466078' post='4343']

Great shot, well worth a quick hijack... <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />

[/quote]

<img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



Thanks!



Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
Away
  Reply
#28
[quote name='BG_Home' timestamp='1290466007' post='4342']

Honestly, I really don't like what you're implying here, and I wish you'd keep that kind of drivel for yourself next time.

[/quote]

Wasn't directed at you all... I'm sure you already knew about the benefits of lens movements to photography but dismissed them because you were already getting satisfactory results without them <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



GTW
  Reply
#29
[quote name='wim' timestamp='1290448824' post='4334']

Geno,



Try say this on any of the other forums out there....



The Z-brigade will be all over you <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />.



Kind regards, Wim <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />

[/quote]

All this talk made me get my hands on a TS-E 17 again today to play. What a lens... tried it in the most extreme shifted position and stopping down only helped reduce vignetting. Sharpness was there right from f/4 and no visible CA! Wow... and at full tilt you can get an extreme tilt of the plane of focus to get ground from the closest focusing distance sharp without stopping down. I totally forgot how extreme a few degrees of tilt is on wide angles compared to teles. Consider yourself lucky to have this lens!



If I was in to landscapes I'd get one in a heartbeat. One would need a good understanding of lens movements to get the most of the lens (and most people think T/S lenses are all about fixing verticals in architecture and doing fake miniatures! lol)... so I can see why the enthusiasm isn't great with ones who haven't used lens movements... they just don't know what they're missing! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



GTW
  Reply
#30
[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1290406392' post='4319']

... But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />



GTW

[/quote]



The above statement of yours really sounds like a brand worshipper... I hope you can avoid such kind of generalization in the future threads.



Serkan
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