[Klaus]

On the silent shutter "need", not only does the shutter on IBIS cameras cause havoc with moving the sensor (and does the M5 not have IBIS), it also creates noisier images and less DR due to an increase in read noise.

 

Sony drops RAW from 14 to 12 bits when using silent shutter mode (or 13 bits to 12 bits).

 

And then there is the rolling shutter issue. It seems the wish for silent shutter is more a specs list reading thing?

 

First of all this is just temporarily valid. A few years back a full electronic shutter didn't exist in photo cameras.

Most of the issues are gone with an electronic first curtain already.

Besides you tend to develop to JPEG thus 8 bits.

Rolling shutter is completely irrelevant for everything but action photography.

[thxbb12]

On the silent shutter "need", not only does the shutter on IBIS cameras cause havoc with moving the sensor (and does the M5 not have IBIS), it also creates noisier images and less DR due to an increase in read noise.

 

Sony drops RAW from 14 to 12 bits when using silent shutter mode (or 13 bits to 12 bits).

 

And then there is the rolling shutter issue. It seems the wish for silent shutter is more a specs list reading thing?

 

This is only true for certain brands. For instance, the full electronic shutter on Olympus and Fuji does not decrease DR unlike on Panasonic Cameras: http://m43photo.blogspot.ch/2015/04/e-m5...tters.html

 

The rolling shutter artifact is a non issue, unless the only thing one shoots is fast action. I pretty much only shoot  portraits wide-open at f1.4 or f1.2 with my Fuji X-T1. On sunny days, the shutter speed easily reaches the 1/10'000 to 1/30'000 range when I shoot my never-still daughter. Despite this, I almost never encounter any rolling shutter artifacts.

[goran h]

That is true for some Panasonic cameras (GH3,GH4,GX7,G7), but GX8 has no decrease in DR when using the electronic shutter.  http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasoni...-review/10

[thxbb12]

Thanks for the info.

It's a good thing Panasonic finally fixed this issue because it was a pretty important limitation.

Btw, the GM1 and GM5 both suffer from it too. It's especially problematic given their mechanical shutter caps at 1/500.

[Brightcolours]

 

Besides you tend to develop to JPEG thus 8 bits.

 

That is a silly statement. RAW bits are not the same as JPEG bits (the scales are totally different) anyway.

 

And what exactly then remains as issue with the lack of full electronic shutter on the M5?

[Klaus]

It was a silly statement if I ever considered it to be a limitation to habe just 12 bits.

4 extra bits are sufficient headroom for most scenes IMHO.


The issue with the M3 is shutter shock.

[Brightcolours]

Raw bits are not in any way similar to JPEG bits. JPEg stores values in a linear fashion, where black is at one end, red green or blue at the other end, and a mid tone in the middle. For each R/G/B channel 8 bits are used

With RAW you have a very different exponential scale where doubling the light doubles the value, making the information density on the bight side much higher than on the low values dark side. 

 

So, it is not simply 8 bits of JPEG and RAW having 4 or 5 or 6 bits "headroom".

 

And again, shutter shock shows up with Sony/Olympus/Pentax cameras with IBIS. The Canpn has no IBIS so no sensor to move with the shutter shock. That the Sony A7R's IBIS and shutter made for a shutter shock combination does not mean that the M5 without full electronic shutter has a shutter shock issue....

[Klaus]

What has IBIS to do with the shutter ???

The Oly EM5 II and Panasonic GX85/GX8 have IBIS yet a full electronic shutter now so what ?!

 

I don't know the shutter of the M5 - I only state that if it's the same one as used in the M3, it's terrible. The M3 has the worst shutter of the cameras in my closet. To be fair - the shutter in the A7R I was even worse.

 

As far as JPEGs are concerned -  of course, the colors are stored in a linear way. However, you still transform the 12/14 bit to the 8bit color space. Yes, you lose some tonality during that process and more bits are better than less, of course. The question is when good is good enough.

[Brightcolours]

KInda weird to have this discussion.... As it is not something unknown.

 

IBIS makes that the sensor can move. The shutter movement creates a energy.

 

Now what is shutter shock? They coined this term to describe a new issue with some mirrorless cameras like the A7R. The shutter creates a shock big enough to cause the sensor of cameras with IBIS to move, creating blur in a certain exposure time range.

IBIS is then very central to this issue. The Sony A7 was not affected: it has no IBIS (and a different shutter even, too).

 

Apparently, some Pentax DSLRs also can have a shutter shock issue. Some Olympus mirrorless cameras have a shutter shock issue too, and it too is related to having IBIS (just like the A7R and some Pentax DSLRs).

 

Some cameras also have a shutter shock issue with certain lenses with IS. The Nikon D8X0 (also other models like the D750) apparently shows it with some lenses, where the shutter slaps hard enough to make the VR module vibrate and cause blur issues at certain exposure times. One lens especially affected is the new 300mm f4 PF, biut apparently some other lenses also have a shutter shock issue. Also apparently the Panasonic 14-140mm lens can show a shutter shock issue,

 

There have not been any reports of Canon lenses with IS that would show similar shutter shock issues.

 

1st curtain electronic shutters have been implemented to prevent the shutter to cause IBIS sensor vibration.

[Klaus]

In theory the shutter may have an impact on the IBIS so it's just one reason more to use the electronic shutter.

However, given the fact that the shutter shock has a substantial impact in non-IBIS cameras (like the A7R or some of the Nikon), you are simply ignoring the key problem here.

 

I think I will abandon this phantom discussion now ...