[JJ_SO]

Wim, of course I tell you I cannot shoot fully the way I like to if I I get certain cameras. At least not like sit in, turn the ignition key and off you ride.

 

Find a self timer. Check which AF mode you're in. Find the white balance. Find the exposure mode. Which wheel for aperture? How to set up ISO, how exposure correction?

 

I can find that with a lot of try and error. Sure, all have a sort of release button, but most people do not know what an AF-ON button is for, when to press it and how to move a focus point. Please do not pretend as if these things were clear on each device  .

 

You can drive your new car, instantly, you know how to find the warning lights. A lot of controls are very similar in cars and for the head lights there are maybe two or three main ways to turn them on. It doesn't matter what's on the 500 pages more. You will get from A to B without problems. Except you have to program the GPS but eben then... if you're not doing it the first time.

 

Right now I came back to this thread because I found a beautiful example of maximum ignorance of UI designers.

 

Here's the (new, introduced with the latest firmware) setting for the dual display of the X-T2. There are two frames in the display/EVF, a small and big one. Here I can decide, which one should be the one with enlarged view to focus and which the one to frame.

 

Text says R (on the left side of the line) and L (on the right side of the line). Given they mean likely Right and Left - why not order the text that way? And why put tow Icons in in the opposite sense of what the text is saying?

 



 

This is the result of the above setting. The red line round the apple is quite hard to detect and framing in the small rectangle is a joke - but Fuji fanboys would have dozens suggestions how to handle this specific situation. None of them would suit to normal AF afterwards, but who cares? Originally, the big frame was for framing and the small to set up a split screen. I'm sure there are happy users, but I do it mostly in AF-S, override the result and try to hold the lens in this focus setting.

 

[wim]

I don't know whether JoJu really meant that, but for me there are chances it can be true. Typically I'm on the field taking photos in a place with other people around (it seldom occurs, since I tend to be in less known and possibly deserted places, but there are exceptions); having a big camera I "must be" a sort of professional, so typically somebody asks me to shoot a picture of him (it happens less frequently now that 1) I have a small mirrorless camera , but the long lenses compensate for it, and 2) there are those funny "selfie stickers" around, so most people are autonomous). Since they put into my hands a compact camera of some kind, I'm often clueless. First, typically there's no viewfinder and I'm not acquainted without it; second, I'm supposed to shot "P-mode", which I've not been using since almost two decades. Probably there is a psychologic problem in addition to the UI, because most of times they say that the camera is already set up and I only have to compose and press the trigger, but I feel so uncomfortable of not being in full control. If I actually have to set up the camera, it's going to be embarrassing, at least because I'm doing it very slowly, and the other people weren't expecting such a slowness by a sort of pro...

Well, maybe I am an exception in that case. I haven't come across a camera yet I couldn't operate to take at least a simple picture. Neither do I have a problem with just composing and pressing the shutter button when people ask me to do so. Since I have used anything from compacts with barely to no VF to rangefinders to slrs, both analog (from a very young age) and digital, in formats from wide MF to 110 and even smaller digitally, and am fairly technically inclined, I may have an advantage I guess.


Personally, because of my style(s) of photography, I mostly use aperture priority with a max iso setting, followed by manual, and occasionally shutter speed priority and bulb. I generally set up tbe camera prior to a shoot, and if it is something I haven't done before or requires an option I don't know yet, I tend to figure it out beforehand.


Kind regards, Wim

[JJ_SO]

In short better ask first before coming to a (wrong) conclusion.

 

I'm no Olympus user, but arrogant comments like this - although basically true - I also read a couple when asking about settings which are just opposite of intuitive. And for settings I don't know because they're not in the manual and well hidden - how can one ask?

 

I was looking for user settings when I got my first Nikon D800. The manual doesn't tell me Nikon has an entirely different concept to handle these in their "pro" lines. The settings of the benches are floating while user settings are saved as long as I don't choose and save others.

 

If these (Olympus settings) are buried at some remote and unexpected corners (if you pay me the time, I can make you a lots of these for Fuji) it's not necessarily  the user's mistake not to find them. And I know thxbb12 as a person able to google, to read manuals and to learn.

 

Also, in these flimsy manuals are no maps which show the menu fully and readable. I always get only selections of certain regions, because that's what they can do in a max A5 or smaller manual - on PDF or via HTML they would have better possibilities, they are just to lazy to use them.

 

Also, if there's a possibility to draw such a graphic map of the menu, the next logical step would be to use this map for settings and show correlations between them, instead of just make a setting I want to use grey because Fuji cannot imagine someone would use toy camera filter with manual focus (I think it was sort of this kind of weird stuff, but I didn't put any effort into remembering it.

 

That might be the difference, Wim: Some people are impressed when they get fat manuals with gazillions of settings to learn. I get impressed when I realize, the designers had a very clear concept and idea what should be done how and in the fastest and most intuitive way. The manual can remain in the box, if these people took their job as challenge.

[JJ_SO]

Well, ..., I may have an advantage I guess.

 

We'll see about that. Next time we meet (which would be the first time, but who knows? in 10 days I'm in The Netherlands again), I give you my X-T2.

Locked.

Good luck with unlocking...  :lol:

[wim]

Wim, of course I tell you I cannot shoot fully the way I like to if I I get certain cameras. At least not like sit in, turn the ignition key and off you ride.

 

Find a self timer. Check which AF mode you're in. Find the white balance. Find the exposure mode. Which wheel for aperture? How to set up ISO, how exposure correction?

 

I can find that with a lot of try and error. Sure, all have a sort of release button, but most people do not know what an AF-ON button is for, when to press it and how to move a focus point. Please do not pretend as if these things were clear on each device  .

 

You can drive your new car, instantly, you know how to find the warning lights. A lot of controls are very similar in cars and for the head lights there are maybe two or three main ways to turn them on. It doesn't matter what's on the 500 pages more. You will get from A to B without problems. Except you have to program the GPS but eben then... if you're not doing it the first time.

 

Right now I came back to this thread because I found a beautiful example of maximum ignorance of UI designers.

 

Here's the (new, introduced with the latest firmware) setting for the dual display of the X-T2. There are two frames in the display/EVF, a small and big one. Here I can decide, which one should be the one with enlarged view to focus and which the one to frame.

 

Text says R (on the left side of the line) and L (on the right side of the line). Given they mean likely Right and Left - why not order the text that way? And why put tow Icons in in the opposite sense of what the text is saying?

 


 Ee

This is the result of the above setting. The red lineme, round the apple is quite hard to detect and framing in the small rectangle is a joke - but Fuji fanboys would have dozens suggestions how to handle this specific situation. None of them would suit to normal AF afterwards, but who cares? Originally, the big frame was for framing and the small to set up a split screen. I'm sure there are happy users, but I do it mostly in AF-S, override the result and try to hold the lens in this focus setting.

 

Joju, what I was trying to say is that all the basic stuff is the same, and I am sure all of us could figure out how to shoot an image with any camera in very short time. However, doing thd semi-pro to pro stuff that some of us do, of course we can't, not immediately anyway. It does help that there is some standard with operating dials when they do exist, so even a little fancier stuff likely is no problem either, and neither will that be the case with more standard menu options.


As to Fuji, I have not yet shot with a Fuji camera yet in recent years (last one was 35 years ago), but from what I read on the internet, it seems that Fuji (and Sony) menu systems are rather complex, and not always clear. I wouldn't be able to comment on this from personal expetience, however. Olympus, on the other hand, I can, having shot with an E-M10 1 and 2, E-M 5 II, and still owning a Pen F and an E-M1 II. Their menus are very extensive, but do make sense when you get the feel for them. The only reason that stuff is hard to find at times is because there is so much, and generally you don't use all of it in equal measure.


And as to cars: my current one has a menu and button system more complex than my E-M1 II, and is not clear or logical at times either, and buggy even.


Kind regards, Wim

[wim]

I'm no Olympus user, but arrogant comments like this - although basically true - I also read a couple when asking about settings which are just opposite of intuitive. And for settings I don't know because they're not in the manual and well hidden - how can one ask?

 

I was looking for user settings when I got my first Nikon D800. The manual doesn't tell me Nikon has an entirely different concept to handle these in their "pro" lines. The settings of the benches are floating while user settings are saved as long as I don't choose and save others.

 

If these (Olympus settings) are buried at some remote and unexpected corners (if you pay me the time, I can make you a lots of these for Fuji) it's not necessarily  the user's mistake not to find them. And I know thxbb12 as a person able to google, to read manuals and to learn.

 

Also, in these flimsy manuals are no maps which show the menu fully and readable. I always get only selections of certain regions, because that's what they can do in a max A5 or smaller manual - on PDF or via HTML they would have better possibilities, they are just to lazy to use them.

 

Also, if there's a possibility to draw such a graphic map of the menu, the next logical step would be to use this map for settings and show correlations between them, instead of just make a setting I want to use grey because Fuji cannot imagine someone would use toy camera filter with manual focus (I think it was sort of this kind of weird stuff, but I didn't put any effort into remembering it.

 

That might be the difference, Wim: Some people are impressed when they get fat manuals with gazillions of settings to learn. I get impressed when I realize, the designers had a very clear concept and idea what should be done how and in the fastest and most intuitive way. The manual can remain in the box, if these people took their job as challenge.

I am replying from a cell phone here, so a little awkward, and a little shorter than normal.


No I was and am not arrogant, I certainly did not mean to be, but I get a liitle upset occasionally, when things get stated as truths which are not and seem to come forth from expertise which is not necessarily there.


Personally, I do not like manuals, I agree you should not need them, and I will only peruse them if all else fails. And as to Oly menus, they are done quite logically, so generally not a problem from that POV. The only problems which may arise are those caused by options one hasn't seen before on another camera or heard of, as in, what does the option mean, and what is the difference between the sub-options, if the in-built help option is not clear enough. For those I may grab the manual, or more likely, search the internet.


Kind regards, Wim

[wim]

We'll see about that. Next time we meet (which would be the first time, but who knows? in 10 days I'm in The Netherlands again), I give you my X-T2.

Locked.

Good luck with unlocking...  :lol:

<ROFL>

Always up for a challenge ....


Kind regards, Wim

[JJ_SO]

I know you're not arrogant, but your comment triggered that judgement about the comment. I mean (and exaggerate), saying basically "RTFM" gives one not the same superiority of being a menu checker than "RTFM at page 362, and the writers confused left with right and manually with automatically, they also mean image when they talk about a picture frame, but otherwise you find the desired information exactly there".

 

Because, guys, the hells in which manuals are forged are no places for the fainthearted of the ancient tribe of "manual-readers". You think, what is written must be true? Enjoy this phantasy as long as you possibly can. The truth's very cruel.  :angry:

[thxbb12]

You clearly haven't looked at recent menu implementations with Olympus. Minimum shutter speed is there, as is auto-iso range.


The same is true for hdr stacking. You can either shoot an already stacked jpeg, or a bunch of unstacked raws, jpegs and raws, or jpegs. When shooting raws, you do have to do the processing yourself, and although that makes sense, I fully expect tbis to appear as an in-camera option as well at some point in time.


In short better ask first before coming to a (wrong) conclusion.


In addition, apart from extremely good filters and filtering system, you can process your images completely, if you so like, in-camera, before or after the shot. If you'd want to, you could do without an external device for processing your raws.


And if there is one company listening to input from users, it actually is Olympus, funnily enough. I don't know where you got the opposite idea.


In short, I see a lot of opinion in your reply, but not so much checking of facts.


BTW, jpeg output on Olympus is excellent, if not the best, and that is not just my opinion.


Kind regards, Wim

 

Is the E-M5 II recent enough? That's the camera my dad uses and I borrowed it during my last vacation. Minimum shutter speed is not available. Auto ISO range is not what I'm talking about. If you had used a Pentax or Nikon body, you would know what I mean. I'm talking about the ability to bias the 1/focal_length algorithm the camera uses. Olympus forums are filled with people asking for an option to set the minimum shutter speed, yet it's still not available (and don't tell me the flash sync is a work around : it's not).

 

As to HDR stacking, you say it yourself "you do have to do the processing yourself". That's what I'm talking about, the camera doesn't save a single RAW file you can use.

 

As far as RAW processing goes, several other manufacturers let you convert RAW -> jpeg in camera: Fuji, Olympus and Pentax at least. However, it's clunky and inconvenient. Read my text again.

[thxbb12]

Olympus, on the other hand, I can, having shot with an E-M10 1 and 2, E-M 5 II, and still owning a Pen F and an E-M1 II. Their menus are very extensive, but do make sense when you get the feel for them. The only reason that stuff is hard to find at times is because there is so much, and generally you don't use all of it in equal measure.

 

You must be the only user who thinks Olympus menus are logical, well organized, and make sense. Olympus cameras are great, but menus are the recurrent complaints of a lot of experienced people who have shot with many systems (Dpreview, Thom Hogan, Nasim Mansurov, etc.).

 

Just to illustrate my point, here are two examples quoted from http://m43blog.dthorpe.net/2015/06/10/mi...u-matters/ comparing Panasonic and Olympus menus:

 

1) Custom settings

One of the best features of digital cameras is the ability store often used settings for instant recall.  Both camera work this the same way. Go to the shooting mode you want to use, aperture priority, manual, whatever. Go through the menus setting everything as you want it. Brilliant! You now have a digital camera that works for you. Ok, lets save that so that it can be instantly recalled.

 

Panasonic

Go to the Custom Menu and choose Cust. Set Mem. There, select C1 for example and OK to confirm it. Now, when you set C1 on the mode dial, you summon up – surprise, surprise! – the settings you just set.

 

Olympus

Set everything as you want it, same as the Panasonic. So far, so good. Now, go to Shooting Menu 1. Select Reset/Myset. Now MySet1, Set and Yes. Now go to Custom Menu section B, Button/Dial/Lever, then Mode Dial Function where you can set MySet1 to any mode dial function except a custom one, since there isn’t any such thing. So find a mode like Art that you won’t use and put it there. In future, to recall your custom setting 1, set the mode dial to Art. Now I don’t know who thought of that but I can tell you that I won’t be hiring him to design my new house. He can argue as long as he likes that labelling the back door  ‘front’ because you can walk through the house to the front door is perfectly logical, I’m not buying it.

 

2) Setting the file quality

 

Panasonic

Rec Menu, Quality.

 

Olympus

Shooting Menu 1 and then this image :

 



 

Now I can’t tell what that symbol means. It looks a bit like one of those little guys that the Space Invaders used to kill. Or was it one of the Space Invaders themselves? Or a radio telescope? Maybe an Anglo-Saxon warrior’s helmet that came off his head after he was slain? Maybe it sets the camera to Shotgun Mode where pressing the button peppers an uncooperative  subject with buckshot? I’d have liked that for sessions with one or two of the footballers I’ve had the misfortune to have to photograph. Whatever it is, how does it mean ‘record mode to take pictures or movies’ as the Info button informs you? Couldn’t you just print ‘Quality’ there in place of the icon? Why wouldn’t you? There’s more but I think I’ve made my point.