[Brightcolours]

[quote name='PuxaVida' timestamp='1290503879' post='4353']

The above statement of yours really sounds like a brand worshipper... I hope you can avoid such kind of generalization in the future threads.



Serkan

[/quote]

It is usually brand worshippers who fall over such statements and are unable to see the nuance in it.I totally dislike that such (true) statements are impossible here, and the marking down of posts being done by brand worshippers.



It happened the same when I pointed out that on forums Canon users usually are way too critical and Nikon users usually tend to praise everything into heaven, taking the Nikon 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 VR and Canon 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM as an example.



Anyone actually reading forums would know that is true, regardless of which brand of camera body(s) they are using. But brand worshippers see it as an attack (I can't even figure out why).

[PuxaVida]

So you read the hope for avoiding "generalization" as brand worshipping? I read it as "being more picky when it comes to make general statements". I would post the same message even if other brand names were included in that part of GTW' s message.



This is an open forum and of course people can express their feelings/thoughts and write marginal statements. And of course some other people can find these types of statements as "generalization" (which most probably leads to speculation). I am on the side which believes that, written statements better include facts and not some speculative ideas / assumptions. It's hard to do this (and sometimes I cannot curb my enthusiasm as well), but I think that other members of this community do have the right to step in.



Serkan

[Brightcolours]

[quote name='PuxaVida' timestamp='1290514731' post='4357']

So you read the hope for avoiding "generalization" as brand worshipping? I read it as "being more picky when it comes to make general statements". I would post the same message even if other brand names were included in that part of GTW' s message.



This is an open forum and of course people can express their feelings/thoughts and write marginal statements. And of course some other people can find these types of statements as "generalization" (which most probably leads to speculation). I am on the side which believes that, written statements better include facts and not some speculative ideas / assumptions. It's hard to do this (and sometimes I cannot curb my enthusiasm as well), but I think that other members of this community do have the right to step in.



Serkan

[/quote]

What he wrote is according to me really rather factual.



"But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things?"



What does "gear buff" mean, according to you? I can not see any brand generalization there. To me, he is pin pointing a particular group. And a group that is very prolific among Zeiss and Nikon buyers. Does he say "Nikon users" or "Zeiss users"? No.

Just a group that for whatever reason finds products that have a Nikon(/Nikkor) label or Zeiss label to be great and superior to other products by default. Do not tell me you do not know the type, in internet forums.



Of course, you can find a few of that type too among Canon or Sony users... but in general, they are way less prolific.



It coincides very well with my former statement of that you see very different "behavior" in Nikon forums and Canon forums. Does that mean that I am saying all Nikon buyers are the same and all Canon buyers are the same? No of course not. Just pointing out a general trend. Did I say anything about Nikon products, Canon products or what not in general? No.



Yet it does get picked up like that time after time, and that is something I really do not appreciate.



That is what I meant.

[wim]

[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1290502123' post='4351']

All this talk made me get my hands on a TS-E 17 again today to play. What a lens... tried it in the most extreme shifted position and stopping down only helped reduce vignetting. Sharpness was there right from f/4 and no visible CA! Wow... and at full tilt you can get an extreme tilt of the plane of focus to get ground from the closest focusing distance sharp without stopping down. I totally forgot how extreme a few degrees of tilt is on wide angles compared to teles. Consider yourself lucky to have this lens!



If I was in to landscapes I'd get one in a heartbeat. One would need a good understanding of lens movements to get the most of the lens (and most people think T/S lenses are all about fixing verticals in architecture and doing fake miniatures! lol)... so I can see why the enthusiasm isn't great with ones who haven't used lens movements... they just don't know what they're missing! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



GTW

[/quote]

Yes, it is one fabulous lens for sure, most don't know what they are missing, and I do indeed count myself lucky. It was worth the 4 months wait, and having to cope with a couple Sigma 12-24 EXes and a Nikkor 14-24 <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />. This is a lens which is way better than a test report, it just sings, whenever I use it ....



Kind regards, Wim

[genotypewriter]

[quote name='Brightcolours' timestamp='1290521354' post='4361']

"But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things?"



What does "gear buff" mean, according to you? I can not see any brand generalization there. To me, he is pin pointing a particular group. And a group that is very prolific among Zeiss and Nikon buyers. Does he say "Nikon users" or "Zeiss users"? No.[/quote]

Thank you! And I wasn't even implying that all such gear buffs are dumb... that's why I also used "typical".



GTW

[Guest]

[quote name='Brightcolours' timestamp='1290521354' post='4361']

What he wrote is according to me really rather factual.



"But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things?"



What does "gear buff" mean, according to you? I can not see any brand generalization there. To me, he is pin pointing a particular group. And a group that is very prolific among Zeiss and Nikon buyers. Does he say "Nikon users" or "Zeiss users"? No.

Just a group that for whatever reason finds products that have a Nikon(/Nikkor) label or Zeiss label to be great and superior to other products by default. Do not tell me you do not know the type, in internet forums.



Of course, you can find a few of that type too among Canon or Sony users... but in general, they are way less prolific.



It coincides very well with my former statement of that you see very different "behavior" in Nikon forums and Canon forums. Does that mean that I am saying all Nikon buyers are the same and all Canon buyers are the same? No of course not. Just pointing out a general trend. Did I say anything about Nikon products, Canon products or what not in general? No.



Yet it does get picked up like that time after time, and that is something I really do not appreciate.



That is what I meant.

[/quote]



Imho it was just a normal response to provocation, what did you expect? If you don't like reaction like that - don't provoke, simple as that :-)

"Gear buff" is very vague term, especially for non-English speakers. I don't know the English slang, and for instance checking an online dictionary reveals that:

"Buff (n. Informal) One who is enthusiastic and knowledgeable about a subject".

Which effectively covers all Nikon users that like their gear, no?

[bryan conner]

[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1290406392' post='4319']

But which typical Zeiss or Nikon gear buff understands technique to talk about such things? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



[/quote]







What type of person would typically know about diffraction limited apertures?





I do believe that knowledge of diffraction limited aperture is helpful to obtaining the sharpest image possible with a given camera/lens combo, especially when shooting macro. I had read about the Circle of Confusion and related topics years ago, but I had not thought about it in a long, long time. Thanks for bringing the subject back up for me. Does this mean that I am no longer a typical Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm buff (since I own cameras from each of these manufacturers)? Oh....my first camera system was a Pentax Screwmount (Spotmatic II) and I loved it. So I should add Pentax to my buffiness. Just call me Buff Daddy.

[PuxaVida]

What can I say BC... That's how you think, and I have expressed how I think in my replies...



I don't feel like I've been finger pointed or blamed and desperately try to clear myself or the zeiss/nikon gear buff community -whatever it is- I don't belong to. All I'm saying is that the expressed words were provocative and speculative... I personally don't believe that Geno wanted to cause a commotion, but sometimes words may come out different than to be intended.



Serkan

[bryan conner]

I agree with you 100% Serkan. I was trying to make light of the situation. It is very easy to insert the incorrect tone into another persons written words in a forum such as this. I know this because I have been guilty of it myself. Sometimes, I let my own insecurities color my perception of what I am reading. In no way am I suggesting that this has occurred with you. I just know that it is a problem that is fairly common in online communities such as this. I think that we (all participants of this forum) should always try to be a little more forgiving of the words that we read and to try not to "read between the lines" if at all possible. And, we should try to avoid writing abrasive comments as they are not productive in a positive way.



I enjoy reading all of the technical discussions and information on this forum. I think that there are a lot of really smart people sharing their knowledge here and I am grateful that they are willing to share it. But, I also have had thoughts of not visiting because of some of the remarks that "seemed" to be condescending. But, I keep reminding myself that this is only a forum on the internet and it is not worth getting angry because of another person being completely insensitive in their choice of words. Sometimes, the person that is making such statements actually enjoys getting the angry reactions from people.

[genotypewriter]

[quote name='Bryan Conner' timestamp='1290604867' post='4395']

What type of person would typically know about diffraction limited apertures?





[/quote]

Well to clear things up a bit... I was talking about [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle"]using lens movements of a t/s lens to maximise the area in focus[/url] and then using an optimal aperture for sharpness instead of using an ordinary lens which would lead one to rely entirely on excessively stopping down (possibly going outside the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_aberration"]optimal aperture for the lens[/url] and/or the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_photography#Diffraction_limit"]DLA of the system[/url]) to increase the area in focus <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



GTW