The Nikon rep confirmed that. It's more an extra power pack than something with an ergonomic purpose. Shame that is, but also: better that way than "creating" another dull and wobbly battery grip. It's a first and maybe Nikon will regret to be this ignorant: first to make such a stupid device (that's my judgement until someone tells me better) and second, to communicate rather poorly about that. No one needs to buy it and hopefully it will collect dust, but I already stopped buying these grips. Not much of a brain effort in them.
(09-02-2018, 06:41 PM)JJ_SO Wrote: The Nikon rep confirmed that. It's more an extra power pack than something with an ergonomic purpose. Shame that is, but also: better that way than "creating" another dull and wobbly battery grip. It's a first and maybe Nikon will regret to be this ignorant: first to make such a stupid device (that's my judgement until someone tells me better) and second, to communicate rather poorly about that. No one needs to buy it and hopefully it will collect dust, but I already stopped buying these grips. Not much of a brain effort in them.
Dull wobbly battery grips....are they worse than hyper uninteresting battery boxes?
Things must be getting seriously "embarrassing" for Nikon now.........the first on line reviews are the most complementary....apart from the shock-wave of just one card slot.......then the niggles start to appear.........as do the questioning later reviews!
.....AF issues....small buffer......only a few expensive lenses........the "what were they thinking" battery box??
Now, the latest is, Nikon stated that the release date is now delayed by maybe couple of months..........ouch!
I've sent flowers rather than a wreath at this stage!
You're such a dramaqueen! For somebody who will not buy a Z you're making a lot of fuzz and dust and hot air, dave. Cool down, dave.
first: not even Nikon rumors does know anything about shifting of delivery dates. Sources? For sure, the fiest batches are sold out and not all preorders can be fullfilled, but so far I haven't heard nor read about "months of delay"
second: don't make a bigger scandal out of something even Canon didn't consider. And a lot of cameras with two slots, INCLUDING Nikon D850, D810, D800 have one fast and one slow slot. So, all the whining about lack of backup basically is bs, as the backup card will slow down the writing process.
third: next bs coming about "few, expensive lenses" - with adapter there are over 300 lenses usable, and you don't know from own eyesight how well that works. I do and your critic is misplaced, not to say one of the people sitting at home and studying spec sheets without having a practical clue.
fourth: yes, the battery compartment is hard to understand. So? Does a single accessory make a whole system useless? Nikon sells a microphone, which is expensive and not improving much of a sound, they're selling expensive WLAN adapters, a GPS device with long delay in finding not enough satellites and some lenses which are more expensive yet not better than third party offers, wobbly battery grips with bad dials and not a single added function - you can't even charge them witout removing the batteries.
That all is already accepted, it didn't hold you or me back to buy our cameras. Yelling around about missing functions and at the same time ignoring the available (good or better) ones is rather strange - but internet real life.
(09-03-2018, 07:33 AM)davidmanze Wrote: (09-02-2018, 06:41 PM)JJ_SO Wrote: The Nikon rep confirmed that. It's more an extra power pack than something with an ergonomic purpose. Shame that is, but also: better that way than "creating" another dull and wobbly battery grip. It's a first and maybe Nikon will regret to be this ignorant: first to make such a stupid device (that's my judgement until someone tells me better) and second, to communicate rather poorly about that. No one needs to buy it and hopefully it will collect dust, but I already stopped buying these grips. Not much of a brain effort in them.
Dull wobbly battery grips....are they worse than hyper uninteresting battery boxes?
Things must be getting seriously "embarrassing" for Nikon now.........the first on line reviews are the most complementary....apart from the shock-wave of just one card slot.......then the niggles start to appear.........as do the questioning later reviews!
.....AF issues....small buffer......only a few expensive lenses........the "what were they thinking" battery box??
Now, the latest is, Nikon stated that the release date is now delayed by maybe couple of months..........ouch!
I've sent flowers rather than a wreath at this stage!
It is not that bad: every camera has positive and negative aspects, especially when you compare it with its competitors.
That said, I think they (the Nikon Engineers) were on a very strict deadline, because Nikon knew that the next battlefield would be FF mirrorless cameras, and they cannot afford to come in third place. Unlike Canon and Sony, which are large corporations with several different areas of interesr, Nikon relies on Photography.
The result: a rushed product that is not really ready for release which was announced early to beat Canon to the punch by a week or so. Just look at the lenses: Nikon has 3 very basic lenses that are quite large for their spexifications, while Canon has 4 lenses, including a very flexible kit lens, and 2 lenses that have to be very complex to design (28-70 f/2 and 50mm f/1.2).
In any case, seeing the final products, I am just not thrilled with any of these, since they are too big and heavy for what I do (walking around and taking pictures).
The big question remaining is: are the consumers expected to stay with DSLR? Mirrorless cameras are actually cheaper to build than DSLR, and you could get new system cameras for less than $500, but Nikon killed their consumer mirrorless range, and Canon EOS-M range is... simply invisible on the market.
If I were Nikon, I would just feel embarassed by the sheer number of people who read and see and conclude and judge, without ever had a camera in their hand. But the good thing is, no one of these people has to buy a camera and from dull and second hand information based critic will not improve a single thing. If you have so much to criticize, the camera's not for you.
(09-03-2018, 10:38 AM)WyldRage Wrote: It is not that bad: every camera has positive and negative aspects, especially when you compare it with its competitors.
That said, I think they (the Nikon Engineers) were on a very strict deadline, because Nikon knew that the next battlefield would be FF mirrorless cameras, and they cannot afford to come in third place. Unlike Canon and Sony, which are large corporations with several different areas of interesr, Nikon relies on Photography.
The result: a rushed product that is not really ready for release which was announced early to beat Canon to the punch by a week or so. Just look at the lenses: Nikon has 3 very basic lenses that are quite large for their spexifications, while Canon has 4 lenses, including a very flexible kit lens, and 2 lenses that have to be very complex to design (28-70 f/2 and 50mm f/1.2).
In any case, seeing the final products, I am just not thrilled with any of these, since they are too big and heavy for what I do (walking around and taking pictures).
The big question remaining is: are the consumers expected to stay with DSLR? Mirrorless cameras are actually cheaper to build than DSLR, and you could get new system cameras for less than $500, but Nikon killed their consumer mirrorless range, and Canon EOS-M range is... simply invisible on the market. Nikon also has different divisions, not just the photographic camera division.
Nikon indeed has an uphill battle: For video, their lenses focus the wrong way around, making them a less viable option for serious video outfits alone for that reason. Canon has been developing and refining the DP PD AF for a number of generations already, controlling both the sensor design aspect and the camera AF algorithms aspect. Nikon seem to have treated the Nikon 1 series as a totally separate entity, everything they did well there never came to the DSLR line for instance. Canon had a processing power gap to fill before they could offer 4K in cameras, but it seems they have managed to close it lately.
On the lenses: The Canon 35mm f1.8 macro seems to be the more attractive of the two, size wise and macro aspect wise. I see nothing wrong with the Nikkor 50mm f1.8: it is a modern, high performance design, and as such not strangely big or expensive. The Canon 50mm f1.2, on the other hand, is heavier, will be quite a bit more expensive and is a more specialized tool.
The Canon 28-70mm f2 is another specialized, expensive and heavy tool, the 24-105mm f4 might be a bit more attractive than the Nikkon 24-70mm f4 (depends on it it is actually finally a good performing 24-105mm). And the 58mm f0.95, that is Nikon trying to outdo Zeiss with its Otus line.
The Nikon Z line is semi-pro + "customer", as you put it... The D600/610/750 are mostly bought by amateurs and even the D850 is popular under amateurs. That they killed the low end consumer line, that part is clear, and I don't see them come with a new APS-C line soon.
Canon's EOS M line is nr 1 in Japan, beating Sony and Olympus even.
Worldwide, Canon has a 49.1% marketshare for DSLR & MILC combined. Nikon 24.9% and Sony a "mere" 13.3%.
Probably one could deduce Canon worldwide market share for mirrorless from mirrorless marketshare vs DSLR marketshare and the above numbers, but my brain is a bit low on caffeine today.
Excuse me JoJu.........I'm a drama King.LOL!
These cameras are supposed to be professional....the latest and the greatest.......aimed at pro shooters......an improvement over the DSLR........that means it requires a certain feature set............which it didn't get!
It's being pitched against the D750 now 4 years old (yet still great) and the new D850 (the best DSLR) both of which can shoot in 14 bit RAW with exposure adjustment on each shot.......which is what you expected even 5-8 years ago.
Why the 12 bit limitation? The processor must be part of the issue....so is it that the heart of the camera's processing is already it's shortfall? .....Nikon should know better than Sony that the world has now adopted 14 bits and some even 16 bits.
QUOTE.. "If I were Nikon, I would just feel embarrassed by the sheer number of people who read and see and conclude and judge, without ever had a camera in their hand. But the good thing is, no one of these people have to buy a camera and from dull and second hand information based critic will not improve a single thing. If you have so much to criticize, the camera's not for you."
Oh, ha ha.......doesn't that sound ambassadorial?........ frankly this is a nonsense statement that was poorly considered.....
The public's response to the shortcomings of their cameras is where Nikon's embarrassment lies....with themselves...........and you blame the possible purchasers of the cameras as not being sufficiently sophisticated to understand Nikon's new remarkable standards..............nice try JoJu.......but sorry it doesn't work like that......the public knows very well what they want, at least when they see it!....
I knew that from the outset this was going to be a tough call for Nikon and overall there's lots of good thing there in terms of video and it's undeniable great body form.......but sacrificing the feature set, both mechanically and electronically covering with a huge launch hype is only papering over the cracks! Thank God for the lens adapter!.......no doubt in my mind it will save the day for Nikon.
As a fundamental president in life.......I've always thought that you "design out the flaws and shortcomings" to improve the game..............
.......and once you have done that...........you make damned sure not to reintroduce them!
Nikon unfortunately broke that principal!
However, it was a good first try.............I'm sure all the controversy will spur them on to rectify the situation ........firstly by FW updates........until the next models turn up!
David, the Z series cameras can shoot 14 bit RAW. Just not the high FPS mode (so yes, a processing power limitation there). Sony does similar things too all the time. One thing for sure is that the Canon R will shoot 14 bit RAW only.
09-04-2018, 08:29 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2018, 08:30 AM by JJ_SO.)
Monsieur le Roi du théâtre dave,
"These cameras are supposed to be professional....the latest and the greatest.......aimed at pro shooters......an improvement over the DSLR........that means it requires a certain feature set............which it didn't get!"
Here's a great use of dots: Replace all ......... with "says who?" These two camera bodies are no more professional than D750, Sony a7, Fuji X-H1 as too much stuff simply is not pro grade. If you read reports from a first "meet and touch", like Nikon is doing lately, there are not much pros at this events. It's a first throw from nikon, and the times that DSLRs were soooo expensive that only pros and super rich amateurs could buy them are over.
It's not pro for the lens choice - standard zooms will come later and maybe we'll see a pro body withing the next two years.
And they are an improvement over DSLR. A new lens you just unbox, and old lens you just mount to the adapter and you're good to go. That IS a massive improvement! Manual focus in a view finder at 50% or 100% of the final picture: massive improvement! Silent shutter (even the mechanical one): massive improvement. 12bit? Check the specs, it's 14bit or 12 bit in RAW size M and S which makes sense as these sizes are meant to save diskspace.
I'm no ambassador, I'm not even a Nikon fanboy but I'm a bit allergic to this kind of always complaining, yet badly informed sort of ronchonnement. I will never recommend anybody to waste money on a first generation mirrorless, no matter how cool I find it. I'm curious, I had it already in my hands and tried a couple of things in short time and low light, and I will not skip my preorder, on the contrary I'm looking forward to it.
All these Mr. Know-it-alls I can live with, but that you continuously critisize thinsg which are apparetnly not as you took them from which sources ever, is a bit too hard not to disagree.
The publics response was firstly based o rumors rather than facts - you were also among them early concluders. A nerdy guy for who one slot is not enough for his wedding shooting and is too stupid to bring a second body can count on my condolences like "poor idiot, you're asking for troubles..."
Really there's an army of reliable two slot (one fast, one slow = two slows, when used as backup) bodies around. I just wait until one of these idiots files a lawsuit against "his" brand which dares to come up with only one slot.
(09-04-2018, 08:20 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: David, the Z series cameras can shoot 14 bit RAW. Just not the high FPS mode (so yes, a processing power limitation there). Sony does similar things too all the time. One thing for sure is that the Canon R will shoot 14 bit RAW only.
Thanks for confirming that you think there is a processor limitation BC!
We know it can shoot 14 bits slowly..........maybe I didn't allude to that accurately as I'm talking in faster FPS rates!
The D850 however shoots 14 bit files with the grip at 9 FPS........the D750 at 6.5 FPS.......the D500 at 10 FPS with exposure control!
How come these dinosaur DSLRs can do all at high FPS rates?
This is an undeniable step back in processing progress!
When Nikon's ML can do what the D850 and the D500 can do....................
Drop me a line!......
In the mean time I'll keep the 4 grand+ (battery box+ adapter+ an overpriced 50mm F1.8) ........ in my sweaty little pocket!
Thanks all the same...ha ha.
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