(09-27-2019, 10:05 AM)JJ_SO Wrote: (09-27-2019, 09:41 AM)davidmanze Wrote: ........ the thought of buying both Sigmas and the Z7 is purely a pipe dream !!
I don't smoke pipe and I don't need to dream about - I just did. No smoke involved. The 85 is excellent - but the 135 is even better, plus "lighter" and shorter.
Today I bumped into a couple who were shooting two Z6's, one with a Tamron G2 (150-600) and the Nikkor 24-70 F4S .......
...... he offered me a try with the G2 ....... I've never looked through a modern day EVF, so I was paying extra attention to it ......
..... and I'm sorry to say I was very disappointed with the viewing experience ..... my first word is bland ......
...... to me, it looked exactly like what it is ........ an electronic viewfinder .......
..... this is no optical viewfinder crusade btw....... I wanted to be impressed ........ but, to me it didn't look real!
"Looking through a viewfinder" is nothing else like "sitting in a car with a modern windscreen display" and not turning the ignition key.
These EVFs are not made to impress daves, they are made to work with them. I was always impressed until 2 years ago how bad they were. Today the only thing what should impress me "they are as good as OVF" which don't impress ME anymore. And using the EVF-only features makes me NOT wish for an OVF, it just means I don't see the OVF as worse - as long as I don't need focus peaking, light amplification in dark situations, checking if I use the proper WB, or simply enlarging the focus area I'm pointing at. By looking through it only and then coming up with this verdict, I doubt your intention to not start another OVF crusade. "It didn't look real" is such a bs - as if an OVF looks real to the point something looks without any camera finder.
What did you expect? Dancing seagulls pointing their wings towards to focus points? Or was it maybe more the fact that you're used the sight of the 150-600 through your APS-C body, so you missed some details? What did you expect, what did you miss?
You stated Joju that you didn't mind someone giving their opinion of EVFs as long as long as it wasn't prejudged and there was no preconception here! ............. I had high hopes for the Nikon 3.69 Mps EVF as it has been well received ........ so I was expecting to see a clear realistic representation through the EVF ...... my immediate reaction was I was looking at an image with HDR type contrast levels as well as almost being able to see the pixels ...... maybe I detected a little scintillance/shimmering ..... ever so slightly.
As for the rest of the camera I was surprised by just how compact it was and how good it felt in the hand, nice and solid ....... although a little hesitancy of the AF with the G2 was noticeable .... no further comments as I only used it for a couple of minutes .....Oh, except the guy went through the first battery in double quick time ....... and went through the second a little while later.
So that's fine for me, as my dreams of a Z6 or other ML bodis are now just that .......dreams.
The next time I'm in town I must go into a decent camera store and look through "all the latest ML models" ..... I want to see what the EVF of the top of the range Panasonic looks like with it's 5.6 Mps sensor.
ML EVF's still have a long way to go to match their optical counterparts ...... inspite of the OVF's short comings!
(09-30-2019, 07:33 AM)davidmanze Wrote: ...
So that's fine for me, as my dreams of a Z6 or other ML bodis are now just that .......dreams.
The next time I'm in town I must go into a decent camera store and look through "all the latest ML models" ..... I want to see what the EVF of the top of the range Panasonic looks like with it's 5.6 Mps sensor.
ML still has a long way to go to match it's optical counterpart!
They will never arrive at the state your OVF where your specific needs are - they always will need power to show something. So for all kind of photographers who need to wait a long time for action to happen, the OVF will remain as the only option as long as there's no self-sufficient power source in a camera.
You also will be disappointed by the Panasonic EVF, although the numbers indicate a better experience, Nikon did a very good job with the optical magnification - so, the experience of just viewing the finder picture will be no better on Panasonic - but Panasonic did a much better job with organizing the icons. A lot of people (including myself) complain that there's no way to view the EVF picture without any disturbing icons. Nikon was stupid enough to think "oh we already have a display and need no extra display bar (like on DSLRs) - we can load all kind of shit into the EVF". It just looks poorly organized.
If the camera is set-up properly, I want to compose my picture without fat icons at each side. If the camera is set up properly, it goes to standby very often - that's a question of changing habits, pushing the release button to start it.
In some aspects - wether you want to or can see it or not - EVF already surpassed the OVF and very often I'm just much better off with an EVF - for my kind of photography. Dim light, manual focus override of AF with contour highlighting and enlarging the focus area, realizing to be in the wrong WB mode (which I don't care much as I mainly shoot RAW).
But once again, I cannot understand what your expectations were. I suspect your were expecting "more" of what an OVF shows. You can wait a long time until an OVF shows the effect of long exposure times to the picture (like Olympus does).
I don't think, the viewing epxerience of a Sony ⍺9 or a ⍺7 RIV will appear "better" to you than your D500's - but the blackout free 10fps or more with continuos tracking and a close to 100% hit rate will leave your DLSR back in the dust. The finder is never an exact reproduction of all picture details coming out of the camera. It just has to be good enough to get the picture. And to get it properly focused and exposed. With this, the OVF doens't help as much as an EVF.
Nikon will have a long way to go to reach Sony's AF qualities. But as Sony already did a lot of pioneer work, Sony users financed the progress of Canon or Nikon or Panasonic (which still relies on CDAF) and Sony's way was even longer.
(09-30-2019, 08:16 AM)JJ_SO Wrote: (09-30-2019, 07:33 AM)davidmanze Wrote: ...
So that's fine for me, as my dreams of a Z6 or other ML bodis are now just that .......dreams.
The next time I'm in town I must go into a decent camera store and look through "all the latest ML models" ..... I want to see what the EVF of the top of the range Panasonic looks like with it's 5.6 Mps sensor.
ML EVF's still have a long way to go to match their optical counterparts ...... inspite of the OVF's short comings!
They will never arrive at the state your OVF where your specific needs are - they always will need power to show something. So for all kind of photographers who need to wait a long time for action to happen, the OVF will remain as the only option as long as there's no self-sufficient power source in a camera.
You also will be disappointed by the Panasonic EVF, although the numbers indicate a better experience, Nikon did a very good job with the optical magnification - so, the experience of just viewing the finder picture will be no better on Panasonic - but Panasonic did a much better job with organizing the icons. A lot of people (including myself) complain that there's no way to view the EVF picture without any disturbing icons. Nikon was stupid enough to think "oh we already have a display and need no extra display bar (like on DSLRs) - we can load all kind of shit into the EVF". It just looks poorly organized.
If the camera is set-up properly, I want to compose my picture without fat icons at each side. If the camera is set up properly, it goes to standby very often - that's a question of changing habits, pushing the release button to start it.
In some aspects - whether you want to or can see it or not - EVF already surpassed the OVF and very often I'm just much better off with an EVF - for my kind of photography. Dim light, manual focus override of AF with contour highlighting and enlarging the focus area, realizing to be in the wrong WB mode (which I don't care much as I mainly shoot RAW).
But once again, I cannot understand what your expectations were. I suspect your were expecting "more" of what an OVF shows. You can wait a long time until an OVF shows the effect of long exposure times to the picture (like Olympus does).
I don't think, the viewing experience of a Sony ⍺9 or a ⍺7 RIV will appear "better" to you than your D500's - but the blackout free 10fps or more with continuous tracking and a close to 100% hit rate will leave your DLSR back in the dust..The finder is never an exact reproduction of all picture details coming out of the camera. It just has to be good enough to get the picture. And to get it properly focused and exposed. With this, the OVF doesn't help as much as an EVF.
Nikon will have a long way to go to reach Sony's AF qualities. But as Sony already did a lot of pioneer work, Sony users financed the progress of Canon or Nikon or Panasonic (which still relies on CDAF) and Sony's way was even longer.
I specifically stated this: " ML EVF's still have a long way to go to match their optical counterparts" ...... ""inspite of the OVF's short comings!""
I noticed you chose not to quote the last part of my phrase ........ 
There are a slew of advantages with an EVF ... low light, WSYWIG exposure, no black out etc. .....overlays and anything you can do with a digital screen and which is beyond the scope of the mechanical/optical system of the DSLR ...(and I'm good for that) ...... and no doubting that the DSLR will become the camera of those of the "ethnic photo community" ..... in the same way as people still love "silver film" .......
Quote: "The finder is never an exact reproduction of all picture details coming out of the camera. It just has to be good enough to get the picture".
Like a car only has to get you from A to B?
But in time EVFs will get better and the MPs wars will extend to the EVF ..... (when manufacturers are running out of more gizmos to give us) ..... until we have EVFs with 20 MPs ......
Until then I'll soldier on ... as I am.
09-30-2019, 11:28 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2019, 11:28 AM by JJ_SO.)
Dave, to not mention "the last part of your sentence" it first had to be in the original sentence. I see a notification " (This post was last modified: 3 hours ago by davidmanze.)" That means, you edited your post after I replied - don't make me responsible for quoting you incorrectly after you changed the original post.  I also edit my posts (especially if I notice my own typos), but then I can't complain about another poster who replied earlier by quoting the old post than I finished my edit.
Another sentence I really ignored from your original post was "as well as almost being able to see the pixels" . ALMOST? Don't make me laugh again. I already did when I read your "I looked through an EVF and survived" post. I get it Dave, you like being a dinosaur, no problems with that, but who cares? 
"Like a car only has to get you from A to B?" Rather "like a screwdriver has to fix a screw without damaging it or me, but not necessarly by feeling it like a screw".
The "ethnic photo community" will be a bunch of old guys sticking to their mirrors or some hipsters tracking the ways their grandfathers had to shoot filmrolls.
I stick to my word when I say that I was just out and out disappointed ........ and of course I lied to the owner saying I was impressed ..... (as soon as I got home I immediately knelt and said 500 "Hail Marys" in repentance for my untruth)
However, to you JoJu I tell it like it is ...... straight from the hip ...... with no flannel !!
At this moment in time the digital EVF cannot match that of an OVF in terms of pure image quality ....... inspite of the OVF's shortcomings.
But overall MLCs will win the battle.
Are you finished with the modification of your post?
I see, I also can be disappointed. By you. I asked a couple of time "what did you expect from the EVF?". You didn't answer, so don't expect anymore answers to this subject from me.
....... to have as high an IQ as possible .... as in a VF image, that doesn't look like an EVF ...... or at least ... near to that.
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