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Mourning the end of an era!!
#11
(02-15-2022, 07:29 AM)Arthur Macmillan Wrote:
(02-03-2022, 11:52 AM)davidmanze Wrote:
(02-03-2022, 11:28 AM)Klaus Wrote: "For within each seed, there is a promise of a flower, and within each death, no matter how small, there's always a new life. A new beginning. "

   Ah yes,  positive philosophical vibes Klaus! ........... 

  Let's hope Nikon has ML APSc seeds and flower pots available in abundance ...... for my part I will do a rain dance .......... Smile 

   ........ and of course spring is just around the corner ...... so maybe we will see Z500s bursting from the blossom in time for late summer ......

 If Nikon were to recognised it ...... they have a fantastic market opportunity, in front of their very eyes ........

I have been asking myself who is going to make the move first, Nikon, or Canon.  It is such an obvious niche to be filled!  And when it comes to nature shooting, and action sports shooting Canon made it obvious to the world, could it have been way back in 1987 (?) that the camera that does this the best is going to be the dominant camera company in the world.

Many believe the D500 is the best bird photography camera of all time.  It would be logical to make a mirrorless version that can build on its legacy.  Putting a new 24mp sensor would probably be the route I'd take.  I'm not up on memory card terminology, but with just a 24mp size I would think they could work just fine with SD form factor cards.  I use SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB cards.  I don't understand the ratings.  The say 170 MB/S but I don't know what equipment has to be used to see it.  My laptop SD slot seems to read them at 30 MB/S.  The camera itself might use them at a higher speed.  Heck, I got four cards for $60.  I'm guessing they are good enough for a 24 MP camera. 

I thought about getting a D500 when I got hooked on birding.  If Canon does introduce their R7 first, then it may have paid off for me to stay with Canon.  If Nikon makes a full frame mount compatible mirrorless first...it's more complicated!

I don't see myself processing RAW images from a camera with a sensor >= 45 MP.  It's fine for some kinds of photography.  LOL, or during winter when the hot air from my computer's exhaust fans can heat the house! 

Let's hope for mirrorless cameras we can fully use!  A Nikon for your and a Canon EOS R7 for me!

-Mac

P.S. - Did you notice the R5 + cooling fan camera version (for the over specked video)?  I wonder its exhaust heat could keep you warm while birding in a blind during the winter?

Hi Mac ........ it looks like Canon will be the first ...... they have the spare capacity and market share to able to go down the many avenues that Nikon cannot until they have established themselves as a major ML market player .......fortunately the Z9 is helping doing exactly that, showing itself to be a very capable camera ......

   On the other hand Mac we are sitting here watching, popcorn in hand, the latest ML camera wars .......  battling themselves one against the another ......... ....... whilst knowing we are sitting in the  "most expensive seats in the theater" ........ 
                   ......the birding seats !!! ......

 ........  you know the ones where Mps are hitting the fifties or above ........ Fps frame rates are hitting the thirties ...... buffers hit the ceiling and prices are hitting the roof, certainly lens wise ......
    ....... most of us have changed camera brands a couple of times and done the rounds of lenses that accompanied them and many are still carrying the financial scars of doings so .... 
   
 the bottom line is Mac ......  we live in the photography sphere that costs the most money .... weighs the most and is the most bulky ....... " it's for birding "  where you need the most technological advantages ...... and that means the most expensive cameras ..... lenses ......... tripods ...... hides ....... not to mention high quality footwear, camouflage gear etc .... Smile 

  We have to ask ourselves Mac ........ Why Oh why do we do it ?? 

   I say all this so as that you make your buying choices wisely ........ just one more for the road .......... Smile
#12
“Davidmanze wrote: … We have to ask ourselves Mac ........ Why Oh why do we do it ??”

Do we really do it? ?
Just teasing, sure some do and some don’t, hehe. Some actually make use of certain features, some just want to have the greatest and latest, and some buy stuff that think they need and later realize that actually don’t. 
Point being, cameras we can get today are … amazing! ? That is good! My 600€ Gx9 takes fantastic photos. And as much as I would like to have better AF and some other things, where for example new Om-1 would be in many ways so much better, I simply can’t justify it. ?Or A1 which is obviously better, bigger and more expensive. No justification neither. ?
On the other hand, I don’t really understand nostalgy for DSLR. I am one that has been so much for analog cameras couple of decades ago, yet soon realized digital is simply better. Not to forget also way more ecological. While mirror was obvious in film days and the only way to get a view without a paralax, for digital it was obvious that mirror and all around is redundant. From day one. All data needed are there on sensor. Just the question of time when technology catches up. And it did.
#13
(02-16-2022, 08:38 PM)MatjazO Wrote: “Davidmanze wrote: … We have to ask ourselves Mac ........ Why Oh why do we do it ??”

Do we really do it? ?
Just teasing, sure some do and some don’t, hehe. Some actually make use of certain features, some just want to have the greatest and latest, and some buy stuff that think they need and later realize that actually don’t. 
Point being, cameras we can get today are … amazing! ? That is good! My 600€ Gx9 takes fantastic photos. And as much as I would like to have better AF and some other things, where for example new Om-1 would be in many ways so much better, I simply can’t justify it. ?Or A1 which is obviously better, bigger and more expensive. No justification neither. ?
On the other hand, I don’t really understand nostalgy for DSLR. I am one that has been so much for analog cameras couple of decades ago, yet soon realized digital is simply better. Not to forget also way more ecological. While mirror was obvious in film days and the only way to get a view without a paralax, for digital it was obvious that mirror and all around is redundant. From day one. All data needed are there on sensor. Just the question of time when technology catches up. And it did.
Jep!

And I remember too well when I said so over 10 years ago, and on and off thereafter, on a variety of forums, and being laughed at, insulted, mocked, etc. ....
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#14
(02-16-2022, 10:14 PM)wim Wrote: Jep!

And I remember too well when I said so over 10 years ago, and on and off thereafter, on a variety of forums, and being laughed at, insulted, mocked, etc. ... 
  
   ......... You know when I first saw a 12V electric milk delivery float/truck over sixty years ago driving down the road I said to myself .....

...  " you know what? ...... there goes the future of the modern vehicle industry, the electric car !"

.......  and sure enough, sixty odd years later Tesla came out with the the model X ........ 

   I'm sure glad I didn't go through that suffering of being mocked, insulted and humiliated, for sixty odd years waiting for it to arrive   ...... Smile

  In reality the modern ML sports camera has been here for just two to three years ....... but as you and I have shown, if you wait long enough everything is possible ........ 
  
 .. ....... but I couldn't suffer the wait, my DSLR got the job done and my knackered out Peugeot 205 better just keep on rolling down the road ......
   
   The only good thing about waiting .......... is when it's over !!
#15
It sounds like for birding you want a large body with a crop sensor.  That would give you more resolution with a "longer" telephoto reach and a larger grip for holding big lenses? 

It's a very Nikony move to give the z50 the same Z mount as their full frame mirrorless cameras, while Canon has EF-M and RF mounts, but hasn't introduced a crop-sensor RF, or crop-sensor specific RF lenses. (Maybe Nikon 1 was the intended competitor for small ILCs)

Usually you get a bit higher resolution on crop sensors because there are more photoreceptors in a smaller area, and they can be built more cheaply, but part of cheap manufacturing is setting up the factories.  I know there's also a low light advantage of having larger photoreceptors, but it seems that is being improved by software and BSI sensors.  If more cameras are full frame, the cost of the sensors may go down, and we may see the same resolution in them as the crop sensors. 

If you put a DX lens on a Z mount, it automatically crops the image.  With that, I could see a full frame camera that would work with a faster frame rate and larger buffer when you put a DX lens on it (or maybe even set a setting).  

So between Nikon's two lens formats, not to mention Canon's and Sony's autofocus improvements, there will be lot of ways to get great photos of birds.  

Best,
Vic
#16
(02-17-2022, 08:56 PM)vab3 Wrote: So between Nikon's two lens formats, not to mention Canon's and Sony's autofocus improvements, there will be lot of ways to get great photos of birds.  

Best,
Vic
"It sounds like for birding you want a large body with a crop sensor.  That would give you more resolution with a "longer" telephoto reach and a larger grip for holding big lenses? "

 
  Yaaay  ..... there are many that are calling for this, me included !! ...(Mac also btw) ....... I like the APSc sensor for reach reasons ....... plus large aperture long lenses for shallower DOF and less noise ..... 
  ......... however, the Z50 is no sports camera ...... AF is no great shakes nor is the Fps rates or buffer ..... so Nikon need to design completely anew.
  ------------------------------------
"If you put a DX lens on a Z mount, it automatically crops the image.  With that, I could see a full frame camera that would work with a faster frame rate and larger buffer when you put a DX lens on it (or maybe even set a setting)."
  ------------------------------------
  It must be said that there are very few Nikon DX long telephoto lenses ...... all the tele-zooms are for the most part FX (tpm) as are the fixed focals (oem) ..... whether there will be future DX lenses we will see ...... but with Nikon on the back foot, it may take some years to achieve ........
 .............................................

"Usually you get a bit higher resolution on crop sensors because there are more photo-receptors in a smaller area, and they can be built more cheaply, but part of cheap manufacturing is setting up the factories."

  Higher pixel density .......... yes! 
----------------------------------------

  There's never been a better time to be shooting birds ....... for sure !!
#17
(02-17-2022, 06:58 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(02-16-2022, 10:14 PM)wim Wrote: Jep!

And I remember too well when I said so over 10 years ago, and on and off thereafter, on a variety of forums, and being laughed at, insulted, mocked, etc. ... 
  
   ......... You know when I first saw an 12V electric milk delivery float/truck over sixty years ago driving down the road I said to myself .....

...  " you know ...... there goes the future of the modern vehicle, the electric car !"

   .......  and sure enough, sixty odd years later Tesla came out with the the model X ........ 

   I'm sure glad I didn't go through that suffering of being mocked, insulted and humiliated, for sixty odd years waiting for it to arrive   ......  Smile

  In reality the modern ML sports camera has been here for just two to three years ....... but as you and I have shown, if you wait long enough everything is possible ........ 
  
 .. ....... but I couldn't suffer the wait, my DSLR got the job done and my knackered out Peugeot 205 better just keep on rolling down the road ......
   
   The only good thing about waiting ..........  is when it's over !!
<LOL>

Actually, I had another example I did not mention yet. In the 1990s I was a regular speaker at developer conferences, and in one of those in 1993 I was asked to take part of a public discussion panel at the conference as well, not long after the first usable bar code scanners with LCD-screens had become available. Fairly big things, but very useful in large storage facilties for stocktaking, orders, etc. Upon discussing this, specifically for consumer use and usability, I said this was a niche product, and although I could see it becoming useful in, e.g., stores, we would need another format for it to become popular for consumers. I was laughed at and mocked in front of a big audience. Upon the question what I thought would be a product or format for the masses, I said it had to be more paper-like, with a large screen, say A4, and thin, much closer to paper. I was laughed at again <ROFL>.

Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#18
(02-18-2022, 11:51 AM)wim Wrote:
(02-17-2022, 06:58 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(02-16-2022, 10:14 PM)wim Wrote: Jep!

And I remember too well when I said so over 10 years ago, and on and off thereafter, on a variety of forums, and being laughed at, insulted, mocked, etc. ... 
  
   ......... You know when I first saw an 12V electric milk delivery float/truck over sixty years ago driving down the road I said to myself .....

...  " you know ...... there goes the future of the modern vehicle, the electric car !"

   .......  and sure enough, sixty odd years later Tesla came out with the the model X ........ 

   I'm sure glad I didn't go through that suffering of being mocked, insulted and humiliated, for sixty odd years waiting for it to arrive   ......  Smile

  In reality the modern ML sports camera has been here for just two to three years ....... but as you and I have shown, if you wait long enough everything is possible ........ 
  
 .. ....... but I couldn't suffer the wait, my DSLR got the job done and my knackered out Peugeot 205 better just keep on rolling down the road ......
   
   The only good thing about waiting ..........  is when it's over !!
<LOL>

 In the 1990s I was a regular speaker at developer conferences, and in one of those in 1993 I was asked to take part of a public discussion panel at the conference as well, not long after the first usable bar code scanners with LCD-screens had become available. Fairly big things, but very useful in large storage faculties for stocktaking, orders, etc. Upon discussing this, specifically for consumer use and usability, I said this was a niche product, and although I could see it becoming useful in, e.g., stores, we would need another format for it to become popular for consumers. I was laughed at and mocked in front of a big audience. Upon the question what I thought would be a product or format for the masses, I said it had to be more paper-like, with a large screen, say A4, and thin, much closer to paper. I was laughed at again <ROFL>.

Kind regards, Wim
  
  Ah yes, by our independent powers of extrapolated forward thinking and imaginary conceptions  ........... we both came upon, unbeknownst to us ....... and via totally independent paths ...... a combination of two visions that were clearly destined to unite us together into one of the biggest business ventures of mankind  .........  
  ........ what with your prophetic tablet visions and my radical redesign of the humble milk-float the world was our oyster ! 

   we so nearly had it all ........ so how the fuck did Elon Musk, now the richest man in the world, get to hear about it ??           Smile
#19
(02-18-2022, 09:14 PM)davidmanze Wrote:   Ah yes, by our independent powers of extrapolated forward thinking and imaginary conceptions  ........... we both came upon, unbeknownst to us ....... and via totally independent paths ...... a combination of two visions that were clearly destined to unite us together into one of the biggest business ventures of mankind  .........  
  ........ what with your prophetic tablet visions and my radical redesign of the humble milk-float the world was our oyster ! 

   we so nearly had it all ........ so how the fuck did Elon Musk, now the richest man in the world, get to hear about it ??           Smile
Because some people do not take ideas for granted, as in, being obvious, but actually think there is a chance to make money from it. And too often, they are very ruthless as well. <LOL>

Actually, in the late 80's I got so frustrated with so-called mouse-libraries as a developer, that I wrote a a mouse-library myself in 8086-assembler, which allowed for setting up mousing areas with functions coupled to them based on movement, clicks, control- en function-keys, which you only needed to set up once at the start of your application or screen, and they would function throughout, instead of having to programmatically check for mouse-movements and -clicks all the time. This was still under DOS. Never even thought of marketing it.

And then there was Windows <ROFL>

And I have a few more examples like this, but I guess it is really beyond the scope of this forum, or thread for that matter.
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#20
(02-19-2022, 12:23 PM)wim Wrote:
(02-18-2022, 09:14 PM)davidmanze Wrote:   Ah yes, by our independent powers of extrapolated forward thinking and imaginary conceptions  ........... we both came upon, unbeknownst to us ....... and via totally independent paths ...... a combination of two visions that were clearly destined to unite us together into one of the biggest business ventures of mankind  .........  
  ........ what with your prophetic tablet visions and my radical redesign of the humble milk-float the world was our oyster ! 

   we so nearly had it all ........ so how the fuck did Elon Musk, now the richest man in the world, get to hear about it ??           Smile
Because some people do not take ideas for granted, as in, being obvious, but actually think there is a chance to make money from it. And too often, they are very ruthless as well. <LOL>

Actually, in the late 80's I got so frustrated with so-called mouse-libraries as a developer, that I wrote a a mouse-library myself in 8086-assembler, which allowed for setting up mousing areas with functions coupled to them based on movement, clicks, control- en function-keys, which you only needed to set up once at the start of your application or screen, and they would function throughout, instead of having to programmatically check for mouse-movements and -clicks all the time. This was still under DOS. Never even thought of marketing it.

And then there was Windows <ROFL>

And I have a few more examples like this, but I guess it is really beyond the scope of this forum, or thread for that matter.
 
  Yeah, grins all round ..  Smile ........ we've covered quite some ground here already  ....... we'd better leave a few other topics and giggles for another day !!
  


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