[genotypewriter]

[quote name='Brightcolours' timestamp='1297378166' post='6047']

Just use the camera you like best.

[/quote]

Absolutely not! We must point out the err in their ways and rub it on their faces! <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Guest]

[quote name='Lomskij' timestamp='1297330366' post='6023']

Typical sine curve - a couple of years ago D90 and D300 were cannibalising 50D's sales, D3 - 1D III's, or D3x - 1Ds III's (well, this one still is). Now Canon has an upper hand with 7D (had actually, before the D7000), etc.[/quote]



D90/D300 vs 50D: Canon's mistakes: (1) they should not have introduced a high pixel count sensor when they were not ready (before the 7D) (2) their fear of cannibalizing the 1D3 sales caused them to excessively cripple the 50D. There would not have been a 7D if the D300 wasn't so successful.



D3 vs 1D3: How Canon could sell a professional sports camera with serious AF issues is beyond me.



D3X vs 1Ds3: Actually, when it comes to FF, the 5D2 wins it all.... by a wide margin. The D700 can't even hold a candle to the 5D2 in terms of market shares (see BCNRanking for example). Even though the Sony 850 is the cheapest FF camera, it's really NOT selling at all. Strange. Rumors have it that because Canon's very own 5D2 cannibalized sales of their 1Ds3 (notwithstanding the primitive 5D2 AF sensor), Canon will re-position the 1Ds4 in a completely different league altogether.



7D vs D7000: Really? The D300s is still kicking around (even though it's due for replacement soon), so it's the legitimate competitor to the 7D. What about trying to compare the pathetic sales of the D7000 to the 60D? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



[quote name='Lomskij' timestamp='1297330366' post='6023']

1Ds III: 5fps @ 21MP = 105MB/s

D3x: 5fps @ 24MP = 120MB/s [/quote]



Actually, before the 7D/1D4, I was always under the impression Nikon's processor is a lot faster than Canon's.

[mst]

[quote name='Brightcolours' timestamp='1297378166' post='6047']

And the D3 at APS-C format... does not AF at all, when you shoot continuously.[/quote]



Only if you insist on that high frame rate. And who would use a D3 or D700 in DX mode anyway?



-- Markus

[Guest]

[quote name='mst' timestamp='1297407604' post='6053']

And who would use a D3 or D700 in DX mode anyway?

-- Markus[/quote]



I am curious how many people use the D3/D700/D3x in DX mode. Seriously.



I've read a number of posts in which users gloat how they can attach DX lenses onto their FX cameras and use the auto-crop feature.



On a different but related note, I always use the reduced RAW files (M-RAW or S-RAW) on the 7D/60D for event shooting. I like it very much 'cos the file sizes are smaller and I never need to print large for event shooting. Yet, many people treat this mode with disdain. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Brightcolours]

[quote name='mst' timestamp='1297407604' post='6053']

Only if you insist on that high frame rate. And who would use a D3 or D700 in DX mode anyway?



-- Markus

[/quote]

I know, I was not the one to bring up the 11fps mode... I only pointed out the uselessness of it <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[genotypewriter]

[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297405576' post='6051']

D90/D300 vs 50D: Canon's mistakes: (1) they should not have introduced a high pixel count sensor when they were not ready (before the 7D)[/quote]

There's nothing suggesting that Canon couldn't do a 15MP sensor well. Why would they make the 7D a 18MP if they hadn't mastered 15MPs? Also people who kept saying the 50D was noisy were 40D users who were looking things at 100%. The only mistake that Canon did was expecting average camera users to understand digitisation and magnification. Even the 40D had the D300 matched in terms of noise. If the D300 had an edge in this area, it's because of its noise reduction in the RAW that people had no control over and didn't know about. Take a look at this scientific analysis of the 50D's sensor (link in quote):



[url="http://astrosurf.com/buil/50d/test.htm"]"The improvement of the 50D detector's with regard to the 40D compensate completely the pixel size reduction. It is a beautiful performance for the 50D..."[/url]





[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297405576' post='6051']

(2) their fear of cannibalizing the 1D3 sales caused them to excessively cripple the 50D.

[/quote]

That's just plain misinformation... the 50D had lots of improvements over the 40D that made it closer to the 1D: ( a ) improved AF, ( b ) AF micro adjust, ( c ) much much nicer LCD over the much hated 40D LCD, ( d ) a much better implementation of Auto ISO, ( e ) contrast detect AF in LV, ( f ) better sRAW options, ( g ) higher selectable ISOs, ( h ) UDMA card support with 20% more continuous shots, etc. Even the 1D3 didn't have some of these features.







[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297405576' post='6051']

There would not have been a 7D if the D300 wasn't so successful.

[/quote]

I think you're fabricating the context a bit here... the D300 was popular among people who pulled out their cheque books to spend $6000 on a D2x the night before it was announced and the D200 users who were stuck at ISO400 with P&S users for years. If you look back at the reviews/tests from that time, there were no significant reasons for anyone to switch from a 40D to a D300 or vice versa just for the camera... that also includes the final AF performance (see tests).



It's the D3 that made Nikon a more appealing platform for high-end cameras and the D300 was on the upgrade path and it was also great as a second body to a D3. Canon came up with the 7D to compete with the platform that is Nikon... not because of anything special the D300 had by itself.





[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297405576' post='6051']

D3 vs 1D3: How Canon could sell a professional sports camera with serious AF issues is beyond me.

[/quote]

It could be argued that prior to the D3, Nikon didn't have a camera that was advanced enough to have such problems <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> This thing is blown out of proportion on the internet... not everyone had the AF problems and Canon did fix it for the ones who had it. They even indicated the updated versions of the 1D3 on the boxes that went on for sale. Also if the problems were as big as you say they were then why would people shoot Canon at major sports events at all until the 1D4 came along recently? To get fired? I think that answers the question.





[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297405576' post='6051']

Rumors have it that because Canon's very own 5D2 cannibalized sales of their 1Ds3 (notwithstanding the primitive 5D2 AF sensor),[/quote]

That first part of your sentence contradicts with the second part... if the 5D2's AF is that bad, how do you think it could "cannibalise" sales of a much more advanced camera? The first part is indeed true and for that there are one of two possibilities here: (1) people don't use AF or (2) the 5D2's AF is fine.



Seriously... anyone who reads the specs and the dpreview forums and say the 5D2's AF is not good just hasn't even picked up a 5D2 or they just haven't learned how to use the camera.



GTW

[Guest]

[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297640632' post='6084']

Even the 40D had the D300 matched in terms of noise. If the D300 had an edge in this area, it's because of its noise reduction in the RAW that people had no control over and didn't know about.[/quote]



I agree the 50D is as good as the D300 at the image level (with 50D downrez to 12 MP). Unfortunately, many reviewers (including the popular DPReview site) are keen on comparisons at the pixel level. That gave the 50D a bad name. Fortunately, that got fixed with the 7D.



I do not think the D300 and D300s contain sneaky destructive in-camera RAW NR. The D90/D5000/D7000? Absolutely yes.



[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297640632' post='6084']

That's just plain misinformation... the 50D had lots of improvements over the 40D that made it closer to the 1D[/quote]



Yes, but still not quite the same as the D300, right? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> The 7D is a much better match for comparison.



[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297640632' post='6084']

Canon came up with the 7D to compete with the platform that is Nikon... not because of anything special the D300 had by itself.[/quote]



Well, many reviews (on-line as well as printed) described the D300 as the best professional camera in the APS-C class. At that time, Canon had nothing that could rival the D300 in terms of features (from the weather-sealed pro built to 100% viewfinder etc etc). Now, whether you want to believe it or not, is a different thing altogether. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297640632' post='6084']

This thing is blown out of proportion on the internet... not everyone had the AF problems and Canon did fix it for the ones who had it. They even indicated the updated versions of the 1D3 on the boxes that went on for sale.[/quote]



I believe you. But the 1D3 most certainly gave Canon a bad rep, and it cost Canon quite a bit of their market shares in the sports arena. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297640632' post='6084']

Seriously... anyone who reads the specs and the dpreview forums and say the 5D2's AF is not good just hasn't even picked up a 5D2 or they just haven't learned how to use the camera.[/quote]



Again, I believe you. But again, too much bad press about the 5D2 AF. Whether it's true or not is another thing altogether. But there's no doubt the 5D2 is a much better seller than the 1Ds3... their prices alone guarantee that. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[genotypewriter]

[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297651348' post='6089']

Unfortunately, many reviewers (including the popular DPReview site) are keen on comparisons at the pixel level.

[/quote]

dpreview is like a smoking habit... idiots not only ruin themselves with it, they use it to stink up everything for others too.





[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297651348' post='6089']

Yes, but still not quite the same as the D300, right? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> The 7D is a much better match for comparison.

[/quote]

I was replying to your "fear of cannibalizing the 1D3 sales caused them to excessively cripple the 50D" comment. The 50D was the replacement for an already existing line and it had improvements which brought it even closer to the 1D3 than its predecessor. Not sure how you can use "excessively cripple" to describe that.







[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297651348' post='6089']

At that time, Canon had nothing that could rival the D300 in terms of features (from the weather-sealed pro built to 100% viewfinder etc etc).

[/quote]

It has been like that all along! The D200 released in 2006 also had more features than the 40D which Canon released in 2007: (1) weather sealed body, (2) more AF points, (3) more AF configurations, (4) 1005 pixel metering sensor, (5) time-lapse shooting, (6) on-demand grid lines, (7) more AEB range, etc.



So why didn't Canon add any of these D200 features to the 40D or even the 50D? Would anyone have chosen a D200 over a 40D?





[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297651348' post='6089']

I believe you. But the 1D3 most certainly gave Canon a bad rep, and it cost Canon quite a bit of their market shares in the sports arena. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[/quote]

Like I said, the biggest carnage is only in the online forums where people say things like "how Canon could sell a professional sports camera with serious AF issues is beyond me" <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />





[quote name='thw' timestamp='1297651348' post='6089']

Again, I believe you. But again, too much bad press about the 5D2 AF.

[/quote]

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It's difficult to choose whom to believe... the people who say it can't be done or the ones who do it and show the results, right? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />





GTW

[Guest]

[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297657837' post='6090']

So why didn't Canon add any of these D200 features to the 40D or even the 50D? Would anyone have chosen a D200 over a 40D?[/quote]



For a very simple reason. The 10 MP Sony CCD sensor in the D200 is one whole stop worse than the 8 MP 40D and 10 MP 400D.



Until Nikon 'fixed' their Archilles' heel, they were not match for Canon's CMOS sensors... no matter how well featured the D200 was.



[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297657837' post='6090']

Like I said, the biggest carnage is only in the online forums where people say things like "how Canon could sell a professional sports camera with serious AF issues is beyond me" <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />[/quote]



That statement is absolutely correct. Why do you think Canon introduced those firmware updates to the 1D3 many months AFTER the 1D3 went on sale? For fun and laughter??? Canon had a lot of time to test and fix their professional cameras long BEFORE they were released, and to make such a gloss mistake is unimaginable.



I may be a Canon shooter, but I am not blinded by 'fanboism'. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297657837' post='6090']

It's difficult to choose whom to believe... the people who say it can't be done or the ones who do it and show the results, right? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />[/quote]



Errr... those shots are no challenge for all current AF sensors (including those in entry level cameras like the 550D). You would have been more convincing if you showed a whole series of continuous shots of a running target in low light. <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[mst]

[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1297640632' post='6084']

I think you're fabricating the context a bit here... the D300 was popular among people who pulled out their cheque books to spend $6000 on a D2x the night before it was announced and the D200 users who were stuck at ISO400 with P&S users for years. If you look back at the reviews/tests from that time, there were no significant reasons for anyone to switch from a 40D to a D300 or vice versa just for the camera... that also includes the final AF performance (see tests).

[/quote]



Not fabricated and there are severeal good reasons. The moment I saw the D300 announcement I knew I'd switch. It's the perfect package that Canon failed to deliver for years (they now offer it as the 7D). The next one that pulled people over was the D700 (it still attracts people away from Canon).



-- Markus