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The weird but interesting RF 600/800mm f/11 DO STM IS
#31
(07-27-2020, 08:10 AM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 09:38 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 05:38 PM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 05:03 PM)davidmanze Wrote: Tony Northrups findings for shooting eye detect and BIF with the R5/R6 and his findings ...... a mixed bag!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUe4vsO3HQ8

  Remarkable eye detect ...... but ......

EVF lag and battery life ......

Toni is a mixed bag himself.
 
   At a time when many are going ML ..... there are some who want to know in advance whether a particular camera is going to be suitable for their needs ...... like we do here with lenses ...... the R5 costs $4,000 .... so not a financial decision to be taken lightly. 
  It's a great Swiss knife camera no doubt ..... but many want to know where it's strengths and weaknesses lie ...... with respect to their personal usage ......
.....  for BIF it has it's shortcomings ..... especially with fast flying birds, which most are ...... EVF lag ..... which ironically will make itself felt most with the new 800mm F11 telephoto ... ... where when looking through the EVF, the bird is flying into the frame ...... yet in the image the birds will be flying out of it ..... or even worse clipped .....

 .... that is worth mentioning don't you think?  .... of course if you don't shoot BIF it's neither here nor there!

Battery life will also be somewhat relevant ... whether you think that Tony is a mixed bag or not!

It is totally up to you to believe mixed bag TonY's videos or not, Dave.

But if I were Tony, I'd turn off image review first before testing the view finder freeze, it would help a lot.
 What has the image review got to do with things? ...... this about the scanning/ processing / EVF ...... do you think he is reviewing every image whilst shooting in burst mode?
  ..... it's the scanning /processing speed of the EVF giving the delay ..... all that takes time .....
 ..... the Sony A9 has a lag of 6ms ..... most MLCs are around 60ms or more .... for most uses that's fine ....... 
  Tony has mentioned that in extreme cases when shooting birds he has had trouble tracking birds when shooting bursts using the A9 ..... the lag compounding itself frame by frame until you are seeing a couple of frame images in the past until the bird is no longer visible in the EVF .... I know this in extreme cases when using telephotos with tele-converters etc and the FOV /magnification is very high.
 The R5 has no doubt pushed in ""one leap camera technology by a huge margin .... a turning point like the A9 was ..... but as things compute faster other glitches/hiccups rear their ugly heads .... and processing speeds need to increase complete with cooling solutions.

 Modern video games are probably the best example .... they need extreme processing speeds ... extreme cooling ..... my video board looks like fridge unit ...... (S/H gaming computer)
..................................................................................................

Toni wrote:

"Birds in flight is still IMHO the kingdom of DSLRs"

When things move fast, absolutely! ....... how much technology will it take to match the simple optical mirror and focus screen?
Dave's clichés
#32
(07-27-2020, 09:09 AM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-27-2020, 08:10 AM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 09:38 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 05:38 PM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 05:03 PM)davidmanze Wrote: Tony Northrups findings for shooting eye detect and BIF with the R5/R6 and his findings ...... a mixed bag!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUe4vsO3HQ8

  Remarkable eye detect ...... but ......

EVF lag and battery life ......

Toni is a mixed bag himself.
 
   At a time when many are going ML ..... there are some who want to know in advance whether a particular camera is going to be suitable for their needs ...... like we do here with lenses ...... the R5 costs $4,000 .... so not a financial decision to be taken lightly. 
  It's a great Swiss knife camera no doubt ..... but many want to know where it's strengths and weaknesses lie ...... with respect to their personal usage ......
.....  for BIF it has it's shortcomings ..... especially with fast flying birds, which most are ...... EVF lag ..... which ironically will make itself felt most with the new 800mm F11 telephoto ... ... where when looking through the EVF, the bird is flying into the frame ...... yet in the image the birds will be flying out of it ..... or even worse clipped .....

 .... that is worth mentioning don't you think?  .... of course if you don't shoot BIF it's neither here nor there!

Battery life will also be somewhat relevant ... whether you think that Tony is a mixed bag or not!

It is totally up to you to believe mixed bag TonY's videos or not, Dave.

But if I were Tony, I'd turn off image review first before testing the view finder freeze, it would help a lot.
 What has the image review got to do with things? ...... this about the scanning/ processing / EVF ...... do you think he is reviewing every image whilst shooting in burst mode?
  ..... it's the scanning /processing speed of the EVF giving the delay ..... all that takes time .....
 ..... the Sony A9 has a lag of 6ms ..... most MLCs are around 60ms or more .... for most uses that's fine ....... 
  Tony has mentioned that in extreme cases when shooting birds he has had trouble tracking birds when shooting bursts using the A9 ..... the lag compounding itself frame by frame until you are seeing a couple of frame images in the past until the bird is no longer visible in the EVF .... I know this in extreme cases when using telephotos with tele-converters etc and the FOV /magnification is very high.
 The R5 has no doubt pushed in ""one leap camera technology by a huge margin .... a turning point like the A9 was ..... but as things compute faster other glitches/hiccups rear their ugly heads .... and processing speeds need to increase complete with cooling solutions.

 Modern video games are probably the best example .... they need extreme processing speeds ... extreme cooling ..... my video board looks like fridge unit ...... (S/H gaming computer)
..................................................................................................

Toni wrote:

"Birds in flight is still IMHO the kingdom of DSLRs"

When things move fast, absolutely! ....... how much technology will it take to match the simple optical mirror and focus screen?
Yeah, what does that image review in the EVF after the image has been taken have to do with the image staying in the EVF for review for a bit and therefore creating this "lag" have to do with this "lag"?

Thinking before posting is a good thing, Dave.  Tongue

We clearly see the image freezing (review) till the next taken image which freezes again (review). If she (the female Tony) would have turned off that review feature, what do you think it would look like?

According to you it is about "scanning / processing/ EVF", whatever you envision that to mean. How is it that the camera can show 120FPS when no image is "taken"? All of a sudden no "scanning / processing/ EVF" involved anymore?

Now back to reality (not to male and female mixed bag Tony "reality").

Jared Polin, the Nikon shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDl9sk9Xc2M
He is shooting with mechanical shutter. All we see is a mechanical shutter black out, a tiny delay in EVF (atmos) feed resume time, and no video feed lag.
Oh, and Jared can just switch between faces, something female mixed bag Tony has not figured out.

Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HBjUl5XdZA
This is what 20FPS silent shooting looks like on the R5. Only way you can detect someone is shooting is because the number of shots available is blinking (on the max. 9999) and that border line is flickering. Lag? Seriously?
#33
(07-27-2020, 11:35 AM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(07-27-2020, 09:09 AM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-27-2020, 08:10 AM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 09:38 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 05:38 PM)Brightcolours Wrote: Toni is a mixed bag himself.
 
   At a time when many are going ML ..... there are some who want to know in advance whether a particular camera is going to be suitable for their needs ...... like we do here with lenses ...... the R5 costs $4,000 .... so not a financial decision to be taken lightly. 
  It's a great Swiss knife camera no doubt ..... but many want to know where it's strengths and weaknesses lie ...... with respect to their personal usage ......
.....  for BIF it has it's shortcomings ..... especially with fast flying birds, which most are ...... EVF lag ..... which ironically will make itself felt most with the new 800mm F11 telephoto ... ... where when looking through the EVF, the bird is flying into the frame ...... yet in the image the birds will be flying out of it ..... or even worse clipped .....

 .... that is worth mentioning don't you think?  .... of course if you don't shoot BIF it's neither here nor there!

Battery life will also be somewhat relevant ... whether you think that Tony is a mixed bag or not!

It is totally up to you to believe mixed bag TonY's videos or not, Dave.

But if I were Tony, I'd turn off image review first before testing the view finder freeze, it would help a lot.
 What has the image review got to do with things? ...... this about the scanning/ processing / EVF ...... do you think he is reviewing every image whilst shooting in burst mode?
  ..... it's the scanning /processing speed of the EVF giving the delay ..... all that takes time .....
 ..... the Sony A9 has a lag of 6ms ..... most MLCs are around 60ms or more .... for most uses that's fine ....... 
  Tony has mentioned that in extreme cases when shooting birds he has had trouble tracking birds when shooting bursts using the A9 ..... the lag compounding itself frame by frame until you are seeing a couple of frame images in the past until the bird is no longer visible in the EVF .... I know this in extreme cases when using telephotos with tele-converters etc and the FOV /magnification is very high.
 The R5 has no doubt pushed in ""one leap camera technology by a huge margin .... a turning point like the A9 was ..... but as things compute faster other glitches/hiccups rear their ugly heads .... and processing speeds need to increase complete with cooling solutions.

 Modern video games are probably the best example .... they need extreme processing speeds ... extreme cooling ..... my video board looks like fridge unit ...... (S/H gaming computer)
..................................................................................................

Toni wrote:

"Birds in flight is still IMHO the kingdom of DSLRs"

When things move fast, absolutely! ....... how much technology will it take to match the simple optical mirror and focus screen?
Yeah, what does that image review in the EVF after the image has been taken have to do with the image staying in the EVF for review for a bit and therefore creating this "lag" have to do with this "lag"?

Thinking before posting is a good thing, Dave.  Tongue

We clearly see the image freezing (review) till the next taken image which freezes again (review). If she (the female Tony) would have turned off that review feature, what do you think it would look like?

According to you it is about "scanning / processing/ EVF", whatever you envision that to mean. How is it that the camera can show 120FPS when no image is "taken"? All of a sudden no "scanning / processing/ EVF" involved anymore?

Now back to reality (not to male and female mixed bag Tony "reality").

Jared Polin, the Nikon shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDl9sk9Xc2M
He is shooting with mechanical shutter. All we see is a mechanical shutter black out, a tiny delay in EVF (atmos) feed resume time, and no video feed lag.
Oh, and Jared can just switch between faces, something female mixed bag Tony has not figured out.

Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HBjUl5XdZA
This is what 20FPS silent shooting looks like on the R5. Only way you can detect someone is shooting is because the number of shots available is blinking (on the max. 9999) and that border line is flickering. Lag? Seriously?
 at the focal lengths they are shooting at, it works fantastically   
 I would not expect any lag .. very impressive indeed !!

But Tony /Chelsea were shooting at 500mm plus a teleconverter 1.4X = 700mm ...... there whatever their settings, it didn't work well ... 

 I want to see another test using the same focal length or longer (800 mm new lens) with very fast moving objects .. ie BIF .....
...... unfortunately this is not the same test!!

so I will reserve judgement until I see tests with a long lens equivalent .... 
but thank you for your contribution BC.
Dave's clichés
#34
Longer focal length does not introduce lag...
A mixed bag Tony often does introduce nonsense... Because they often are ignorant/make mistakes/lack understanding, in this case a image review setting.
#35
[quote='Brightcolours' pid='51886' dateline='1595880345']
Longer focal length does not introduce lag...


No, it just exaggerates it!
In the same way that longer focal lengths require faster shutter speeds I suppose!! ....... I wonder why that is..... it couldn't have anything to do with magnification could it? ... no, of course not ..... it's all the same! ...... and stabilization is the same for all focal lengths ... fish eye to 1,000 mm ...... those manual FL settings for lenses that don't communicate to the camera when using IBIS are just there for show ... when we all know that one size fits all ......
I will be looking elsewhere for long lens shooting information thanks all the same ....
Dave's clichés
#36
(07-27-2020, 08:48 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-27-2020, 08:05 PM)Brightcolours Wrote: Longer focal length does not introduce lag...

 
No, it just exaggerates it!
In the same way that longer focal lengths require faster shutter speeds I suppose!! ....... I wonder why that is..... it couldn't have anything to do with magnification could it? ... no, of course not ..... it's all the same! ...... and stabilization is the same for all focal lengths ... fish eye to 1,000 mm ...... those manual FL settings for lenses that don't communicate to the camera when using IBIS are just there for show ... when we all know that one size fits all ......
I will be looking elsewhere for long lens shooting information thanks all the same ....

  1. Mixed bag Tony and mixed bag female Tony showed in that video the "issue" which was entirely their fault: they saw the taken image due to an image review setting, making it impossible to follow a bird (or anything moving) after taking a photo. Their criticism (as so often with certain brand "product assessments") was rather nonsensical, as mr Polin's video and the other video I linked to shows.
  2. If the live view lags, it does so in the beginning too. So, the bird will never be where you see it and whether you try to take the 1st frame or the 13th frame, the result will be the same. The lag would not multiply after every image.
  3. Yes, the mechanical shutter black out is visible (as seen in mr Polin's video). It is not longer than you get with your D500 or a D850, but with the DSLR you get less on/off effect when the mirror moves up and down, you get a more gradual and at the same time more flickering effect. With the electronic shutter you get NO black out or lag what so ever when taking images. 
  4. With a longer focal length, a small movement of the camera/lens makes for a bigger movement in the frame. That is the reason why exposure times need to be shorter and IS is more helpful at longer focal lengths. Lag, however, remains exactly the same. Whether you photograph a car passing by with 50mm, or a bird flying by with 500mm, 
  5. Cameras with IBIS can use any lens with the IS, you just need to tell the camera which focal length you are using.
If you still wonder why I said Tony is a mixed bag himself...
I wonder which incorrect objections and "facts" you will post next....
#37
Actually I did leave a message under Tony's video asking if he had review turned off when shooting.

He also said the A9 did the same only somewhat less.

If he got it wrong that does make him a bit of a muppet.

Again we will have to see in his further reviews
Dave's clichés
#38
It's hot here and I'm unable to sleep so I had a look on the Canon RF forum on DP review ......

   There are now  images appearing from the 600mm/800mm lenses ..... 
    the 600mm images are the best of the two ...... sharpness is decent but not any better than "good" and certainly not very good (using OL's ratings lens testing criterion) most are close distance images which makes sharpness look better but the bird's eyes do not look sharp ....  not a great show IMHO ..... but it is early days .......
 From what was posted sharpness didn't match the Tamron G2 at the same focal length ...... by a moderate margin. 

 Images from the 800mm look softer and the poster says they are cropped ...... I ignored the images with movement as that was down to the user.
Dave's clichés
#39
Diffraction ...
Chief Editor - opticallimits.com

Doing all things Canon, MFT, Sony and Fuji
#40
Rather than diffraction, more so bad conversion/processing.
  


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