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So Canon's video saga continues
#21
(08-09-2020, 02:46 PM)davidmanze Wrote:
(08-09-2020, 01:02 PM)Brightcolours Wrote: Still not clear why anyone would shoot non-slow motion video at 60FPS.... Let alone 4K at all or 8K. Funny stuff.

(08-06-2020, 04:28 PM)wim Wrote: Ok, it is possible to shoot fro 4 hours continuously in HQ 4K 60 mode, under the proviso you record externally and remove the memory cards from the camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnG00Fhu5pI

Rather boring Youtube video, but Gerald Undone also reacted, which is quite interesting. His limit for video with regard to approval is 3 hours continuous shooting.

There also is this interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0x9Vdckfg comparing a RED and EOS R5 8K Smile.

And finally, here is Gordon Laing reviewing the camera for stills photography: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT5GeNH3...e=youtu.be

Kind regards, Wim

Thanks for the actual info, Wim. All the nonsense that gets posted and repeated is quite amazing.

 I think the reason ..... why video-graphers want to shoot video 4K video at 60 Fps as a normal replay speed cannot be answered here is because we are not in the video industry .......

..... which is why the question needs to be asked to video-graphers themselves ...... you never know perhaps they have a perfectly good reason ..... like some of them prefer it for example .. (God forbid ??)

..... this question needs to be answered elsewhere ..... so "those still not clear" can find out for themselves !!

Videographers do not want to do 60fps at normal video speed, dave. Only people who know nothing about video think that. 60fps is for slomo, 120 fps is for double the slomo.

No videographer will shoot weddings at 60 fps for normal speed playback.

The question is, why do you think or pretend that 60fps at normal playback speed is something videographers actually want/do?

30 FPS gives a smooth TV look to the video shot, 24 (25 PAL) has a cinematic feel.
Sports might be shot at 60fsp, to allow for smooth slowmotion playback.


And as Wim points out, the R5 can shoot 4K60 HQ mode (better than what the competition does due to oversampling from 8K) for a prolonged time. For videographers like you, Dave... ;-)

As Wim has pointed out, you can shoot 4K 60 FPS
#22
for normal viewing on my laptop when shooting my daughter on trampoline the video is smoother at 6fps
#23
(08-09-2020, 04:55 PM)Brightcolours Wrote: [quote pid='52077' dateline='1596984416']
[quote pid='52076' dateline='1596978142']
(08-06-2020, 04:28 PM)wim Wrote: Ok, it is possible to shoot fro 4 hours continuously in HQ 4K 60 mode, under the proviso you record externally and remove the memory cards from the camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnG00Fhu5pI

Rather boring Youtube video, but Gerald Undone also reacted, which is quite interesting. His limit for video with regard to approval is 3 hours continuous shooting.

There also is this interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0x9Vdckfg comparing a RED and EOS R5 8K Smile.

And finally, here is Gordon Laing reviewing the camera for stills photography: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT5GeNH3...e=youtu.be

Kind regards, Wim





[/quote]

Videographers do not want to do 60fps at normal video speed, dave. Only people who know nothing about video think that. 60fps is for slomo, 120 fps is for double the slomo.

No videographer will shoot weddings at 60 fps for normal speed playback.

The question is, why do you think or pretend that 60fps at normal playback speed is something videographers actually want/do?

30 FPS gives a smooth TV look to the video shot, 24 (25 PAL) has a cinematic feel.
Sports might be shot at 60fsp, to allow for smooth slowmotion playback.


And as Wim points out, the R5 can shoot 4K60 HQ mode (better than what the competition does due to oversampling from 8K) for a prolonged time. For videographers like you, Dave... ;-)

As Wim has pointed out, you can shoot 4K 60 FPS


......................................................................................
  Wim got there a little late !!   .... I posted the link to Gerald Undone's video  (second post on page 2) .......  ....and stated those "very facts" ..... (check it out)........ but thanks for the belated heads up, albeit three days after the fact !!

Rightly or wrongly, some people "are" shooting 4K at 60 Fps for normal P/B speed and that is a fact ! ..... B role is often shot in 4K 60 FPS also ...... mostly shot by human beings ......   

Atomos is going to do real well out the R5 ...... maybe they"ll even sell a couple to A7SIII owners ...... superfluously! ..... Smile
Dave's clichés
#24
Ok, now it gets a bit out there, sort of. Shooting multi camera productions with not at all good form factor for video mirrorless stills cameras.
So no matter what anyone finds out about the R5, it is a lousy camera? Ok, got you.

Facts still remain.... It does 4K30 and 4K60 in higher quality, with better C-log, higher bitrate, oversampling from 8K, with much better AF for video if desired, much better IBIS for video, much less jello effect, but the A7 III is better, not just in some cases, but all cases. Right?   Rolleyes

Even in multi camera  serious setups, where you record externally for long durations in 4K60, where the R5 apparently does not overheat. Got it, the A7 III is the best.
Tongue
#25
(08-10-2020, 08:30 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: Ok, now it gets a bit out there, sort of. Shooting multi camera productions with not at all good form factor for video mirrorless stills cameras.
So no matter what anyone finds out about the R5, it is a lousy camera? Ok, got you.

Facts still remain.... It does 4K30 and 4K60 in higher quality, with better C-log, higher bitrate, oversampling from 8K, with much better AF for video if desired, much better IBIS for video, much less jello effect, but the A7 III is better, not just in some cases, but all cases. Right?   Rolleyes

Even in multi camera  serious setups, where you record externally for long durations in 4K60, where the R5 apparently does not overheat. Got it, the A7 III is the best.
Tongue

I totally agree with you, Canon is just like Microsoft ten years ago
#26
(08-10-2020, 08:30 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: Ok, now it gets a bit out there, sort of. Shooting multi camera productions with not at all good form factor for video mirrorless stills cameras.
So no matter what anyone finds out about the R5, it is a lousy camera? Ok, got you.

Facts still remain.... It does 4K30 and 4K60 in higher quality, with better C-log, higher bitrate, oversampling from 8K, with much better AF for video if desired, much better IBIS for video, much less jello effect, but the A7 III is better, not just in some cases, but all cases. Right?   Rolleyes

Even in multi camera  serious setups, where you record externally for long durations in 4K60, where the R5 apparently does not overheat. Got it, the A7 III is the best.
Tongue

No BC, it's about corporate dishonesty and not being up front that p.....d me right off .... my sympathies at that point are gone ..... whatever the brand ....... Nikon whoever!!

 In fact I think it is a truly great camera indeed, especially with it's amazing AF system with boggling eye AF .... great image quality, high resolution and build!
  As a stills camera it's hard to beat and knocks the socks off anything Nikon has to offer ...... lenses are great too ....
 The video specs are wonderful no doubt ...... but that overheating !! 
    I watched Gerald Undone's video live while it was streaming and posted the fact here early during it (three hours btw).... so I was seeing how the R5/R6 wqs doing in terms of overheating in "real time" .... my post seemed to go unnoticed, but in reality the Atomos was the camera's saviour. 
  So now it "isn't the same camera situation in terms of video" at all!!
.... Canon published all those remarquable specs which were picked up by the rumour sites and published for all of us to read and wow over, (I was wowing too) ........ the Canon ambassadors duly said wonderful things about IQ , eye AF and video without mentioning the OH issues ....... no doubt under pressure from Canon to keep quiet about it ....... and the pre-orders flooded in!  
.. slowly but surely independent reviewers got their hands on the camera and the camera manual itself ........ and everything started to become public ....... with over heating videos a go go .... the pooh hit the fan (quite rightly IMO)
  ..  Canon knew the camera had overheating problems and said "nothing" about it ...... once revealed that all the OH issues were printed to see in the manual, yet were never mentioned, was in my view, deceitful ..... Canonites felt duped and quite rightly so!
 IMO a camera that overheats and then can take hours before you can even as much as turn it on again is unacceptable to say the least if not forewarned.
 Everybody thought the days of Canon's embargo on consumer video specs was over ....
 So where are we now? ...... the Atomos luckily has come to the rescue and given the R5/R6's great video specs a chance to breathe again, but it's no longer the same game as was advertised on the tin ......... it's not a stand alone video camera!
 ...... you need an Atomos ext recorder and a bunch of gear plus cards, extra batteries, mic and sundries ..... and the will to use it .. and if you want to shoot 8K you will have to wait for the new 8K model ..... and then the most powerful of computers to process it.

   The Sony A7SIII. 
 Less adventurous in it's concepts, it doesn't provide 8K .....however it does provide a good range of 4K options ....... no record time limit, a new level of OVF (which actually interests me, I want to try one) and a system of getting the heat out of the camera ...... (and so so stills resolution) ....... not so great ..... it's a video camera .......... (btw. I'm not so interested in the differences between their 4K specs ...... both produce great 4K video  
 .... what it does have to do however, is work consistently in all modes without anything other than a mic on the camera ....... without overheating !! (I discount leaving the camera running in full Florida sunshine .... once discovered, you provide some sort of small shade and that's the end of it ..... not so the Canon)
 So, it turns out it does what it says on the tin ..... it's a stand alone video camera ..... very few caveats, nothing to hide and no nasty surprises....... Sony was honest there!!


  Which is better is for your needs? .... only the buyer can decide!


 

....  BC, you are a true Canon man ..... loyal to a tee ....... and loyalty is a very honorable quality!!
Dave's clichés
#27
(08-10-2020, 11:52 AM)davidmanze Wrote:
(08-10-2020, 08:30 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: Ok, now it gets a bit out there, sort of. Shooting multi camera productions with not at all good form factor for video mirrorless stills cameras.
So no matter what anyone finds out about the R5, it is a lousy camera? Ok, got you.

Facts still remain.... It does 4K30 and 4K60 in higher quality, with better C-log, higher bitrate, oversampling from 8K, with much better AF for video if desired, much better IBIS for video, much less jello effect, but the A7 III is better, not just in some cases, but all cases. Right?   Rolleyes

Even in multi camera  serious setups, where you record externally for long durations in 4K60, where the R5 apparently does not overheat. Got it, the A7 III is the best.
Tongue

No BC, it's about corporate dishonesty and not being up front that p.....d me right off .... my sympathies at that point are gone ..... whatever the brand ....... Nikon whoever!!

 In fact I think it is a truly great camera indeed, especially with it's amazing AF system with boggling eye AF .... great image quality, high resolution and build!
  As a stills camera it's hard to beat and knocks the socks off anything Nikon has to offer ...... lenses are great too ....
 The video specs are wonderful no doubt ...... but that overheating !! 
    I watched Gerald Undone's video live while it was streaming and posted the fact here early during it (three hours btw).... so I was seeing how the R5/R6 wqs doing in terms of overheating in "real time" .... my post seemed to go unnoticed, but in reality the Atomos was the camera's saviour. 
  So now it "isn't the same camera situation in terms of video" at all!!
.... Canon published all those remarquable specs which were picked up by the rumour sites and published for all of us to read and wow over, (I was wowing too) ........ the Canon ambassadors duly said wonderful things about IQ , eye AF and video without mentioning the OH issues ....... no doubt under pressure from Canon to keep quiet about it ....... and the pre-orders flooded in!  
.. slowly but surely independent reviewers got their hands on the camera and the camera manual itself ........ and everything started to become public ....... with over heating videos a go go .... the pooh hit the fan (quite rightly IMO)
  ..  Canon knew the camera had overheating problems and said "nothing" about it ...... once revealed that all the OH issues were printed to see in the manual, yet were never mentioned, was in my view, deceitful ..... Canonites felt duped and quite rightly so!
 IMO a camera that overheats and then can take hours before you can even as much as turn it on again is unacceptable to say the least if not forewarned.
 Everybody thought the days of Canon's embargo on consumer video specs was over ....
 So where are we now? ...... the Atomos luckily has come to the rescue and given the R5/R6's great video specs a chance to breathe again, but it's no longer the same game as was advertised on the tin ......... it's not a stand alone video camera!
 ...... you need an Atomos ext recorder and a bunch of gear plus cards, extra batteries, mic and sundries ..... and the will to use it .. and if you want to shoot 8K you will have to wait for the new 8K model ..... and then the most powerful of computers to process it.

   The Sony A7SIII. 
 Less adventurous in it's concepts, it doesn't provide 8K .....however it does provide a good range of 4K options ....... no record time limit, a new level of OVF (which actually interests me, I want to try one) and a system of getting the heat out of the camera ...... (and so so stills resolution) ....... not so great ..... it's a video camera .......... (btw. I'm not so interested in the differences between their 4K specs ...... both produce great 4K video  
 .... what it does have to do however, is work consistently in all modes without anything other than a mic on the camera ....... without overheating !! (I discount leaving the camera running in full Florida sunshine .... once discovered, you provide some sort of small shade and that's the end of it ..... not so the Canon)
 So, it turns out it does what it says on the tin ..... it's a stand alone video camera ..... very few caveats, nothing to hide and no nasty surprises....... Sony was honest there!!


  Which is better is for your needs? .... only the buyer can decide!


 

....  BC, you are a true Canon man ..... loyal to a tee ....... and loyalty is a very honorable quality!!

You're actually wrong, David.

Although It was never highlighted by the Canon ambassadors as such, Canon, unlike any other manufacturer so far, has been very open about the overheating, and actually has stated all of this, with timing and everything, very clearly in the manual too. The problem really is with the so-called reviewers not reading the manual, or forgettign that this i snot a videocamera to start with. If you want an 8K video camera, you need to get yourself a RED at a multiple of the cost of the R5. However 4K 60 and everything below is just fine. Remove the memory cards and use an external recorder, and you are only limited by battery life and the capacity of the external recorder.

If anything, Canon are very careful, possibly overprotective, especially compared to a few other camamera manufacturers, who fixed a temperature limit by means of firmware - the message just didn't display anymore thereafter.

Essentially, this camera is a truly excellent stills camera, with good general video capabilities, and in addition some limited exceptional video possibilities. That is really the way to look at it.

Am I a Canon man? Yes, quite unashamedly, and an Olympus man, BTW. Why? Because apart from using AF, I can manually focus with these cameras (not so with any Nikon body - due to my weird eyes), I like the lenses and their rendering, and I like the physical UI of Canon (that of Olympus too), it gels with me, unlike that of the other FF manufacturers.

As to Gerald Undone - he already mentioned that the camera has passed his test for video work now, after he realized he could shoot with it for more than 3 hours in HQ and 120p modes with an external recorder like the Atomos.

Basically no other stills-oriented camera can do what the R5 does, and no, the Sony A7S III is not a stills camera, not by a long shot, unless you would like to go back 15 years, literally. The Sony S cameras were specifically designed to shoot video, unlike any Canon MILC or DSLR.

Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 1 zoom, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#28
(08-10-2020, 02:27 PM)wim Wrote:
(08-10-2020, 11:52 AM)davidmanze Wrote:
(08-10-2020, 08:30 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: Ok, now it gets a bit out there, sort of. Shooting multi camera productions with not at all good form factor for video mirrorless stills cameras.
So no matter what anyone finds out about the R5, it is a lousy camera? Ok, got you.

Facts still remain.... It does 4K30 and 4K60 in higher quality, with better C-log, higher bitrate, oversampling from 8K, with much better AF for video if desired, much better IBIS for video, much less jello effect, but the A7 III is better, not just in some cases, but all cases. Right?   Rolleyes

Even in multi camera  serious setups, where you record externally for long durations in 4K60, where the R5 apparently does not overheat. Got it, the A7 III is the best.
Tongue

No BC, it's about corporate dishonesty and not being up front that p.....d me right off .... my sympathies at that point are gone ..... whatever the brand ....... Nikon whoever!!

 In fact I think it is a truly great camera indeed, especially with it's amazing AF system with boggling eye AF .... great image quality, high resolution and build!
  As a stills camera it's hard to beat and knocks the socks off anything Nikon has to offer ...... lenses are great too ....
 The video specs are wonderful no doubt ...... but that overheating !! 
    I watched Gerald Undone's video live while it was streaming and posted the fact here early during it (three hours btw).... so I was seeing how the R5/R6 wqs doing in terms of overheating in "real time" .... my post seemed to go unnoticed, but in reality the Atomos was the camera's saviour. 
  So now it "isn't the same camera situation in terms of video" at all!!
.... Canon published all those remarquable specs which were picked up by the rumour sites and published for all of us to read and wow over, (I was wowing too) ........ the Canon ambassadors duly said wonderful things about IQ , eye AF and video without mentioning the OH issues ....... no doubt under pressure from Canon to keep quiet about it ....... and the pre-orders flooded in!  
.. slowly but surely independent reviewers got their hands on the camera and the camera manual itself ........ and everything started to become public ....... with over heating videos a go go .... the pooh hit the fan (quite rightly IMO)
  ..  Canon knew the camera had overheating problems and said "nothing" about it ...... once revealed that all the OH issues were printed to see in the manual, yet were never mentioned, was in my view, deceitful ..... Canonites felt duped and quite rightly so!
 IMO a camera that overheats and then can take hours before you can even as much as turn it on again is unacceptable to say the least if not forewarned.
 Everybody thought the days of Canon's embargo on consumer video specs was over ....
 So where are we now? ...... the Atomos luckily has come to the rescue and given the R5/R6's great video specs a chance to breathe again, but it's no longer the same game as was advertised on the tin ......... it's not a stand alone video camera!
 ...... you need an Atomos ext recorder and a bunch of gear plus cards, extra batteries, mic and sundries ..... and the will to use it .. and if you want to shoot 8K you will have to wait for the new 8K model ..... and then the most powerful of computers to process it.

   The Sony A7SIII. 
 Less adventurous in it's concepts, it doesn't provide 8K .....however it does provide a good range of 4K options ....... no record time limit, a new level of OVF (which actually interests me, I want to try one) and a system of getting the heat out of the camera ...... (and so so stills resolution) ....... not so great ..... it's a video camera .......... (btw. I'm not so interested in the differences between their 4K specs ...... both produce great 4K video  
 .... what it does have to do however, is work consistently in all modes without anything other than a mic on the camera ....... without overheating !! (I discount leaving the camera running in full Florida sunshine .... once discovered, you provide some sort of small shade and that's the end of it ..... not so the Canon)
 So, it turns out it does what it says on the tin ..... it's a stand alone video camera ..... very few caveats, nothing to hide and no nasty surprises....... Sony was honest there!!


  Which is better is for your needs? .... only the buyer can decide!


 

....  BC, you are a true Canon man ..... loyal to a tee ....... and loyalty is a very honorable quality!!

You're actually wrong, David.

Although It was never highlighted by the Canon ambassadors as such, Canon, unlike any other manufacturer so far, has been very open about the overheating, and actually has stated all of this, with timing and everything, very clearly in the manual too. The problem really is with the so-called reviewers not reading the manual, or forgettign that this i snot a videocamera to start with. If you want an 8K video camera, you need to get yourself a RED at a multiple of the cost of the R5. However 4K 60 and everything below is just fine. Remove the memory cards and use an external recorder, and you are only limited by battery life and the capacity of the external recorder.

   

If anything, Canon are very careful, possibly overprotective, especially compared to a few other camamera manufacturers, who fixed a temperature limit by means of firmware - the message just didn't display anymore thereafter.

Essentially, this camera is a truly excellent stills camera, with good general video capabilities, and in addition some limited exceptional video possibilities. That is really the way to look at it.

Am I a Canon man? Yes, quite unashamedly, and an Olympus man, BTW. Why? Because apart from using AF, I can manually focus with these cameras (not so with any Nikon body - due to my weird eyes), I like the lenses and their rendering, and I like the physical UI of Canon (that of Olympus too), it gels with me, unlike that of the other FF manufacturers.

As to Gerald Undone - he already mentioned that the camera has passed his test for video work now, after he realized he could shoot with it for more than 3 hours in HQ and 120p modes with an external recorder like the Atomos.

Basically no other stills-oriented camera can do what the R5 does, and no, the Sony A7S III is not a stills camera, not by a long shot, unless you would like to go back 15 years, literally. The Sony S cameras were specifically designed to shoot video, unlike any Canon MILC or DSLR.

Kind regards, Wim

Thank you for confirming most of what I wrote !!
Dave's clichés
#29
Dave, it "overheats" when doing stuff no other comparable camera can do: Downsampled from 8K60 4K60, saving internally.
Canon told us so, and also the reason: They wanted to keep the camera compact and retain the level of weather sealing (so they did not consider a fan). The A7 III heats up quicker/more, the R5 appears to have rather conservative overheating protection. The A7 III cools down quicker, due to the new heat sink structure Sony introduced in this model.

Now gain to the simple facts: 4K60 is NOT a normal shooting setting. 4K24/25/30 are, and they do not "overheat". Another fact: the A7 III does overheat doing the same thing sooner in for instance the french summer.
So you have a mode you would hardly ever use, and not in long duration takes, and according to you are pissed off that Canon has not been upfront? In what have they not "been upfront" exactly?

Back to the facts: The R5 offers a lot more than the A7 III: much IBIS, way less jello, better 4K, 8K, 45mp. The A7III does better high ISO (albeit with much lower resolution for stills) and has better single battery battery time. It has a bigger native lens lineup, and costs a few 100 $ less.

For whatever reason you are bent on pushing the "overheating is a shame" narrative, no matter what.
#30
(08-10-2020, 06:59 PM)Brightcolours Wrote: Dave, it "overheats" when doing stuff no other comparable camera can do: Downsampled from 8K60 4K60, saving internally.
Canon told us so, and also the reason: They wanted to keep the camera compact and retain the level of weather sealing (so they did not consider a fan). The A7 III heats up quicker/more, the R5 appears to have rather conservative overheating protection. The A7 III cools down quicker, due to the new heat sink structure Sony introduced in this model.

Now gain to the simple facts: 4K60 is NOT a normal shooting setting. 4K24/25/30 are, and they do not "overheat". Another fact: the A7 III does overheat doing the same thing sooner in for instance the french summer.
So you have a mode you would hardly ever use, and not in long duration takes, and according to you are pissed off that Canon has not been upfront? In what have they not "been upfront" exactly?

Back to the facts: The R5 offers a lot more than the A7 III: much IBIS, way less jello, better 4K, 8K, 45mp. The A7III does better high ISO (albeit with much lower resolution for stills) and has better single battery battery time. It has a bigger native lens lineup, and costs a few 100 $ less.

For whatever reason you are bent on pushing the "overheating is a shame" narrative, no matter what.

   You keep repeating the same or similar specs ..... I've seen them so many times I really don't need to see them again .....
Dave's clichés
  


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