Posts: 621
Threads: 46
Joined: Apr 2010
Reputation:
0
Hi,
Following the recent releases of the Nikon D800 and Canon 5 M III, we now have for both major full frame systems the situation that the top of the line body has fewer pixels than the "lesser" model. Any idea on the rational? The top of the line cameras are when it comes to it rational products. People running a business are investing into a tool to carry out their business. Is it that these top models are made for the wedding/portrait photographer who prefers better high ISO performance over a few extra pixels?
On the other hand is the D800 what a landscape or advertising professional would want? Just thinking about build etc. I understand that sensor is supposed to break into the MF market, but I would expect a better build body would be appreciated by these folks.
Overall, in the film days you would have solved (some of) this by loading different film (e.g. Portrait film vs Velvia) but these days it needs building into the camera.
Best wishes
Joachim
enjoy
Posts: 1,340
Threads: 55
Joined: Apr 2010
Reputation:
0
Both companies would want to target the group of people who are going to buy their top end products. And yes, it does sound like both think they don't need high MP in that class body. I think in part it is also due to it being easier to process insane frame rates if you moderate the MP count.
But that isn't the only group of buyers, and they need to cover the rest of the market. MP count is one parameter out of many in a spec list, which they have to balance with everything else.
And personally I never really saw the point about comparing high MP full frame to medium format. To me, the main selling point of full frame over APS-C sensors is that you can achieve a shallower depth of field if you should need it. I see comparing medium format to full frame in much the same way, although having said that I never found the medium format lenses to be that great in making use of the bigger sensor. So for shallow depth of field, full frame might be the sweet spot optically.
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://snowporing.deviantart.com/">dA</a> Canon 7D2, 7D, 5D2, 600D, 450D, 300D IR modified, 1D, EF-S 10-18, 15-85, EF 35/2, 85/1.8, 135/2, 70-300L, 100-400L, MP-E65, Zeiss 2/50, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300/2.8, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Olympus E-P1, Panasonic 20/1.7, Sony HX9V, Fuji X100.
Posts: 2,441
Threads: 320
Joined: Apr 2010
Reputation:
19
The biggest target group for the high-end bodies (1D and D3/D4) are sports and press photographers. The most wanted features for this group are high frame rates, top notch AF and a built-to-last body. They don't really care about the highest resolution possible.
On the other hand, those who need high resolution, like fashion or product/ad shooters, usually don't need or actually don't want the large bodies of the high-end cameras (and most of their features).
Of course, there are still many who who fit into both groups... or neither. There's the large crowd of "advanced amateurs" who don't have specific subjects and thus specific needs regarding the camera. They want a camera capable in many regards and to me it seems that currently the 5D III matches their needs best.
-- Markus
Editor
opticallimits.com
Posts: 621
Threads: 46
Joined: Apr 2010
Reputation:
0
Hi Markus and Popo,
Thanks for the replies. I didn't quite have the frame rate on my radar. Lower resolution sensor makes it easier to cope with a high frame rate makes perfect sense.
Best wishes
Joachim
enjoy
[quote name='mst' timestamp='1330942881' post='16417']
The biggest target group for the high-end bodies (1D and D3/D4) are sports and press photographers. The most wanted features for this group are high frame rates, top notch AF and a built-to-last body. They don't really care about the highest resolution possible.
On the other hand, those who need high resolution, like fashion or product/ad shooters, usually don't need or actually don't want the large bodies of the high-end cameras (and most of their features).
Of course, there are still many who who fit into both groups... or neither. There's the large crowd of "advanced amateurs" who don't have specific subjects and thus specific needs regarding the camera. They want a camera capable in many regards and to me it seems that currently the 5D III matches their needs best.
-- Markus
[/quote]
As a MFT shooter, I regard the FF "not bricks" (that is not 1D or Dx body type) as interesting only if it differentiates itself markedly from the MFT system. The "DOF" control is granted on both Nikon & Canon offerings. When D800 was announced, it still seemed to me the only logical differentiator to accept for the increased bulk over MFT would be extreme resolution for gymnasium size prints (figure the likeliness of it happening ;-)). It matched. Then comes the 5DmkIII and it's super low noise & its hi quality video. It matched too, but differently.
Seems to me it's the first time I see such a split between them (highly personal).
[quote name='mst' timestamp='1330942881' post='16417']
...
There's the large crowd of "advanced amateurs" who don't have specific subjects and thus specific needs regarding the camera. They want a camera capable in many regards and to me it seems that currently the 5D III matches their needs best.
-- Markus
[/quote]
That is the most elegant way to say that D800 exceeds (or IOW, not perfectly meet) the requirements of the D700 owners waited for the upgrade <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />...
Actually what Nikon did, makes sense... Given that they get the sensor from Sony, they don't have the "Spielraum" that Canon has... So in a pragmatic way, FX is basicly for Pros and both D4 and D800 should meet the specific requirements. OTOH we (the D700 users) feel quite mixed these days. The new D800 gives everything what a D700 user was expecting... Moreover it has a 36mp sensor, and that's a bit too much (compared to 12mp). Still what Nikon did, makes sense. But we the D700 owners feel a little lonely these days...
And what Canon did, makes more sense actually... They're also categorizing the products & consumers like Nikon did. But in a different order of timing maybe... Canon seems to give the priority to speed Pros and advance amateur customers. The 1D-X was very wellcome with that respect. The new 5D3 was a disappointment to many 5D2 owners. That's maybe because Canon always pampered it's customers with higher MP products among the competitors, and partly because Nikon just recently introduced the highest pixsel density in FF area. Nevertheless, I agree with Markus that the new 5D3 (at least on the paper) should give what an advanced amateur needs. And for the Canon users who have waited for higher MPs (either Pros, or high MP amateurs), I' m convinced that in the near future a >30mp FF camera will be introduced by Canon. Just not too soon to prevent the decrease of sales for 5D3...
It seems I'm a bit off the topic Joachim, sorry for that... But maybe I can turn back with a speculative sub-topic:
What about the recent mirrorless APS-C cameras, or latest MFTs... Do you guys think these are backup cameras for DSLRs or are they aiming to replace the APS-C DSLRs? I mean if I were a APS-C DSLR user, and if I don't shoot birds or in general not in a need for long teles, these mirrorless systems could be the go for me... Especially the new Fuji... And if I can speculate, what Canon did with 5D3 makes sense with that regard also. I believe more than the 5D2 owners, 5D3 will be tempting for Canon APS-C owners who want to upgrade (either to the new a bit overpriced 5D3, or to the old but good and very affordable 5D2). So can it be that Canon tries to steal (own) customers from mirrorless guys?
Serkan
Posts: 1,597
Threads: 22
Joined: Apr 2010
Reputation:
8
[quote name='PuxaVida' timestamp='1331020162' post='16432']
....
It seems I'm a bit off the topic Joachim, sorry for that... But maybe I can turn back with a speculative sub-topic:
What about the recent mirrorless APS-C cameras, or latest MFTs... Do you guys think these are backup cameras for DSLRs or are they aiming to replace the APS-C DSLRs? I mean if I were a APS-C DSLR user, and if I don't shoot birds or in general not in a need for long teles, these mirrorless systems could be the go for me... Especially the new Fuji... And if I can speculate, what Canon did with 5D3 makes sense with that regard also. I believe more than the 5D2 owners, 5D3 will be tempting for Canon APS-C owners who want to upgrade (either to the new a bit overpriced 5D3, or to the old but good and very affordable 5D2). So can it be that Canon tries to steal (own) customers from mirrorless guys?
Serkan
[/quote]
Serkan,
I am not Markus (or Klaus or Sebbi of course), but I would like to share some observations on this subject <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />.
I have been speaking with several retailers in different parts of the country here. What they find is that lower end dslr sales are dropping, and that CSC sales are on the increase. When quizzed about the why, I always get as an answer that many of those buying a low end dslr as an upgrade to a compact camera, aren't actually interested in learning all the ins and outs of shooting with dslrs, and most do not buy more than one extra lens beyond the kit lens. These upgraders are the ones moving towards CSCs, and currently the most popular ones are the APS-C variants (Nex, Samsung) and the Nikon V1 and J1. The advertising campaigns of these brands do help a lot here as well. Of the MFT buyers, over here it looks like Olympus is doing better in large size stores which also sell other white goods (and brown goods), whereas Panasonic seems to do better in smaller retail stores (which also sell more lenses than the large consumer goods stores).
These retailers do not represent a statistical sample of course, but it does seem to indicate a trend. What is a problem currently, it seems, is availability of cameras and lenses, however. It looks like there aren't enough of them available, except for the more consumer oriented models (rather than the more advanced ones). Although this may seem to indicate tha the market is the same group of people upgrading from "lesser" compact cameras, it may also be that Olympus and Panasonic cannot keep up with the demand, of course, or didn't anticipate the demand.
From my perspective here it means that Canon certainly is not stealing from mirrorless guys with their FF cameras, but caters for a minority who are willing to spend the money and likely the time required to learn their systems in order to get more from these systems. And as a stop-gap mirrorless option they now have the G1X, although I think that only caters for a very small part of the market due to its size and lens limitations. Canon are working on a mirrorless system, they already patented an adapter for EOS lenses to whatever smaller system they are building, with built in automatic diaphragm to prevent stray light from the edge areas to reach the smaller sensor, IOW, much like the second diaphragm in the EF-S 60 Macro lens. If the drawings are to scale, it looks like this may well be an APS-C sensor or maybe even a sensor similar in size to the one in the G1X. I reckon Canon, just like Nikon, intends to go its own way in this regard.
So far my opinion/2 cents <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />.
Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
[quote name='wim' timestamp='1331026548' post='16435']
Serkan,
I am not Markus (or Klaus or Sebbi of course), but I would like to share some observations on this subject <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />.
[/quote]
It's always very welcome Wim <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />...
Well I don't think that the compacts with interchangable lenses are less complex than APS-C DSLRs in general. There can be a decrease on the sales of entrance level APS-C DSLRs due to the fact you already mentioned. But if these people look for simplicity and don't want to deal with additional lenses, I'm not sure if the correct address is MFT or mirrorless APS-C cameras from Sony / Fuji.
And regarding the pressure coming on the APS-C DSLRs (maybe exactly here I have to mention that I'm leaving high end bodies like D300, 7D aside). There are plenty of alternatives (in terms of lenses) in the MFT area, while Sony and Fuji still have their problems concerning that. But this is for now... We all see what will happen in the next 2-3 years. It seems that Sony and Fuji are quite serious in that mirrorless APS-C product line. Fuji already introduced a promising lens family, also gave clues about an M-mount adapter... And Sony dances with Zeiss... I believe there are too many APS-C DSLR models already. It shouldn't be easy for mirrorless systems to catch and bite them <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />...
Serkan
|
