[JJ_SO]

The strange thing about Pentax is - at this sales volume, camera development becomes unsustainable really. Unlike lens design, new cameras are expensive - less so due to hardware (mostly standard components) but software. They can barely afford new DSLRs and we know the situation on the mirrorless side. The logical thing to do would be to transform themselves into an independent lens manufacturer - like Zeiss. Zeiss also abandoned cameras because they weren't able to compete anymore (a long time ago). However, it seems as if Pentax has - at least to some degree - outsourced their lens R&D to Tokina/Tamron.

But Zeiss tries again something with a camera and the software they believe to get from Adobe and get Lightroom onboard. I don't know, if it's awkward or weird or just plain crazy. 

However, Zeiss could transform themselves into "purely optics" because they already made from microscopes to refractors pretty much everything you could do with grinded and polished glass. They were and are connected to Schott glass.

I'd really be curious to read something about the connection between Germany and Japan during and before WW II. It's interesting that no more countries played significant roles in optical development when it comes to cameras. 

Earlier I heard older guys saying, it was Zeiss' fault to become a company unable to compete with Japanese products because they let Japanese designers, engineers and glass makers into their factories to copy most things. There are loads of similarities between Contarex and Nikon's/Canon's early rangefinders. And Zeiss and the Japanese camera / lens makers had not only the same portfolio but also the same goals while they were allied. This part of company history in Germany usually is left out of the fancy "100 years blabla manufacturing" commemorative writings. Usually it's something like "it was hard to get supplies, factories were bombed, women working" - nothing about killing competitors in occupied countries, slave workers, and the role of the "these days neat and shiny" companies to bring mass destruction over other people. Most of the people who could tell "the other stories" are dead by now.

Don't get offended, Kunzite, I'm German like Klaus or Markus as well. Today we can't change what happened 90, 80 years ago, but I'd like to see some companies communicating more open about their history.

[toni-a]

Pentax is part of a big group that offers plenty of products and electronics, they seem satisfied with the current camera division, they don't seem to have set targets very high, if the company is happy and customers are happy where is the problem?

[davidmanze]

While I had a little nap next to the empty grave, I just looked up Smart Vision. Far too many hits - none from Pentax. I even looked up "Pentax Smart Vision", because as guessed, Pentax didn't invent the "vision" wheel. No results - one needs to look for "Ricoh Smart Vision" to get Google results. Although the lenses of our machine's workpiece position detection are from Pentax.

I had no idea the grave had been dug already ............ they say that from first ideas to the finalized product takes five years ......


         How long ago did they dig it?

[JJ_SO]

While I had a little nap next to the empty grave, I just looked up Smart Vision. Far too many hits - none from Pentax. I even looked up "Pentax Smart Vision", because as guessed, Pentax didn't invent the "vision" wheel. No results - one needs to look for "Ricoh Smart Vision" to get Google results. Although the lenses of our machine's workpiece position detection are from Pentax.

I had no idea the grave had been dug already ............ they say that from first ideas to the finalized product takes five years ......


         How long ago did they dig it?

Ask Kunzite, he was the one telling us about people dancing on Pentax' grave, "but it is empty!"

People dancing on Pentax' grave, same old story... and the grave is still empty. Schadenfreude, yet the misfortune is in large part imagined. And insults directed at those who don't do the same dance. What a nice bunch of people!

[Mistral75]

It's not huge, yet Pentax brand is still profitable, Ricoh is making money from Pentax and they seem satisfied with that, good for them.
(...)

We don't know whether Pentax is profitable. We do know from Ricoh's financial reporting that Ricoh \ Other \ Smart Vision, which includes both (i) Pentax-branded cameras, lenses and accessories and (ii) Ricoh-branded cameras (GR III, WG, G, Theta) and accessories is growing and profitable. The growth seems to come from the success of Ricoh GR III and Theta Z1 though.

---

(...) it seems as if Pentax has - at least to some degree - outsourced their lens R&D to Tokina/Tamron.

They have not, at least not to a significant degree.

Three lenses in the current Pentax line-up are rebranded Tamron lenses, as already indicated. One lens (12-24mm f/4 launched in 2004) has an optical formula licenced from Tokina.

All other Pentax-branded lenses are based on optical formulas patented by Pentax Corp., Hoya, Ricoh Imaging or Ricoh, depending on who was owning the brand when the patent request was filled.

This applies to the recently launched D FA★ 50mm f/1.4. Its optical formula was licenced from Ricoh by Tokina for their opera lens, not the other way around.

For those who would like to check: patent request filled by Ricoh on the 14th of February, 2018 (JP,2018-024300) and published on the 22nd of August, 2019 (JP,2019-139158,A). Inventor is Minoru Murayama, a Pentax employee since at least 2003.

[Klaus]

Code:

Don't get offended, Kunzite, I'm German like Klaus or Markus as well. Today we can't change what happened 90, 80 years ago, but I'd like to see some companies communicating more open about their history.

I'm half German now ;-) More like a quarter.

---

It's not huge, yet Pentax brand is still profitable, Ricoh is making money from Pentax and they seem satisfied with that, good for them.
(...)

We don't know whether Pentax is profitable. We do know from Ricoh's financial reporting that Ricoh \ Other \ Smart Vision, which includes both (i) Pentax-branded cameras, lenses and accessories and (ii) Ricoh-branded cameras (GR III, WG, G, Theta) and accessories is growing and profitable. The growth seems to come from the success of Ricoh GR III and Theta Z1 though.

---

(...) it seems as if Pentax has - at least to some degree - outsourced their lens R&D to Tokina/Tamron.

They have not, at least not to a significant degree.

Three lenses in the current Pentax line-up are rebranded Tamron lenses, as already indicated. One lens (12-24mm f/4 launched in 2004) has an optical formula licenced from Tokina.

All other Pentax-branded lenses are based on optical formulas patented by Pentax Corp., Hoya, Ricoh Imaging or Ricoh, depending on who was owning the brand when the patent request was filled.

This applies to the recently launched D FA★ 50mm f/1.4. Its optical formula was licenced from Ricoh by Tokina for their opera lens, not the other way around.

For those who would like to check: patent request filled by Ricoh on the 14th of February, 2018 (JP,2018-024300) and published on the 22nd of August, 2019 (JP,2019-139158,A). Inventor is Minoru Murayama, a Pentax employee since at least 2003.

Of course, I don't know who licensed to whom in the past but historically there were several lenses shared with other companies.
- 10-17mm (Tokina)
- 18-270mm (Tamron)
- 12-24mm (Tokina)
- 50-135mm (Tokina)
- 16-50mm (Tokina)
- 100mm (Tokina)

So in a sense, Pentax is already transforming itself to a third-party lens manufacturer.

[Kunzite]

The strange thing about Pentax is - at this sales volume, camera development becomes unsustainable really.

Maybe, if there was a Pentax Corporation making only DSLR products.
But Ricoh Imaging has a more diversified product line, with the Theta and GR helping quite a bit.

However, it seems as if Pentax has - at least to some degree - outsourced their lens R&D to Tokina/Tamron.

Definitely not! And you should know better.
I'm tired of repeating: there are only 3 Tamron-made Pentax lenses. There is one Pentax-made lens with Tokina-designed optics (the old DA 12-24). The others are Pentax.
The D FA* 50mm f/1.4 - which is also offered as Tokina Opera? It's a Pentax design. The DA* 11-18mm f/2.8, their latest new design? It's Pentax.

---

Of course, I don't know who licensed to whom in the past but historically there were several lenses shared with other companies.
- 10-17mm (Tokina)
- 18-270mm (Tamron)
- 12-24mm (Tokina)
- 50-135mm (Tokina)
- 16-50mm (Tokina)
- 100mm (Tokina)

So in a sense, Pentax is already transforming itself to a third-party lens manufacturer.

Shared, yes, but why on Earth would you assume they are the other maker's doing?
From your list, the 18-270 is a rebadged Tamron, and the 12-24 has Tokina-designed optics. The others are Pentax designs (yes, shared with Tokina - because, surprisingly to some, Tokina needed Pentax more than Pentax needed Tokina).

[Klaus]

The misconception is not really surprising because Tokina released some of those lenses earlier than Pentax. So what do you expect? :-)

e.g.
Tokina 50-135mm: October 2006
Pentax 50-135mm: February 2007

Assuming that Pentax did really design this lens, it was very stupid to allow Tokina the first shot.

[Brightcolours]

Everything that Pentax has been doing for decades can be termed "very stupid", so not that surprising ;-)

[davidmanze]

Stop Press.

    Pentax product announcement:

https://pentaxrumors.com/2019/09/18/this-is-what-ricoh-will-release-for-the-pentax-100th-anniversary/